Competency vs. Creativity

[Mark Sampson]

Ansel, for sure, was aware of the 19th-century landscape photographers. Check his autobiography; I'm reasonably sure he talks about finding/seeing/owning an original portfolio of Watkins' work when he was young. ....Certainly Adams' work has become so popular, and copied, that his artistic achievement can be hard to see. But it's there all right.

[paulr]

Weston did not get the slap on the back he was expecting from Stieglitz when he travelled to NYC to visit the master...

unfortunately for the photographic pilgrims of the time, how much stieglitz liked your work seemed to have as much to do with how his bowels were feeling as with anything else. i think weston caught him on a bad day. if i remember right, walker evans had a horrible appointment with stieglitz, at least the first time they met.

ansel had better luck ... he and stieglitz hit it off when they met in 1933, and stieglitz gave him a show at his american place gallery.

[Brian Ellis]

Brian, do you know when the f64 guys first discovered the the 19th century survey work? I was under the impression that they found it after they'd already been doing their thing, and that it came as bit of a shock. But I haven't seen anything written about it.

No, I don't know but I'd be a little surprised if that was the case. In "Examples" Adams talks about making his White House Ruin photograph in 1941 and later realizing that it was almost a duplicate of one made by Timothy O'Sullivan that was included in a collection of original prints that he (Adams) used to own. Adams doesn't say when he owned the O'Sullivan print but clearly by 1941 he knew of the work of the 19th century photographers. Group f64 was founded in 1932 so assuming they all knew whatever Adams knew, there was a pretty short time frame within which to become aware of the 19th century work if they learned of it after forming Group f64 (and of course Group f64 was dissolved in 1933 or thereabouts).

[Bruce Watson]

because the perception at the time was that the baroque compositional style was completely played out ... that all the major discoveries afforded by the form had been made (Bach himself had made the bulk of them). And more subjectively, it felt to people like old news. Then and now, you're not going to get credit as a revolutionary or as the Big Thing of your era by producing what people see as Olde Fashioned Songs and Pictures.

Case in point. Bach himself was not given credit as a revolutionary or as the Big Thing is his era. That credit came later, long after he himself was dead. The question of what forms are "played out" is best answered by the artist, and not the people or the critics. Thank goodness Bach decided that the counterpoint styles were alive and working for his vision, even if his contemporaries thought otherwise.

yeah, Mozart worked in an existing form (as did Bach, Shakespeare, Hemingway, and Picasso) but it was a living and growing form at the time he used it, and like these other artists he used it in ways that felt contemporary and that were unmistakeably his.

It was a living and growing form because he was using it, not because he was living in a time when other people used it. See Bach above.

That's the crux of this thread I think: who gets to say what form or style is "used up" or "played out" and when does that occur? You seem to be saying it's the audience (and critics) who get to make that determination. I say it's up to the artists to use the forms and styles that best fit their vision, regardless what anyone else thinks.

Clearly we aren't going to convince each other, so the last word is yours if you want it

[Ken Lee]

Competency vs. Creativity

Replace vs. with and

One cannot exist without the other. They define one another, in relative terms.

[paulr]

That's the crux of this thread I think: who gets to say what form or style is "used up" or "played out" and when does that occur? You seem to be saying it's the audience (and critics) who get to make that determination. I say it's up to the artists to use the forms and styles that best fit their vision, regardless what anyone else thinks.

Bruce, i'd only say that a form or a style is played out when those who work within it find themselves unable to do anything but repeat what's essentially been done before. it's not a judgement to be handed to someone else. if a 400 year old form is perfectly suited to someone's original vision about the world they live in, then power to them. it may not the most likely case, but i'd never say it's impossible.

for what it's worth, i just looked up some histories on mozart, and found that he DID imitate bach for a period after he discovered bach's compositions. not surprisingly, though, those derivative pieces are not the one's he's known for. and they're apparently not the ones he was most happy with either; he quickly evolved the style into his own voice, using it as a jumping-off point rather than an end in itself.

you can see the same kind of evolution with picasso. his early work looked like a catalog of masterful imitations. but that work has been largely forgotten by the world, because it's only important in terms of picasso's development. it was a stepping stone to his finding his own vision.

[tim atherton]

Bruce, i'd only say that a form or a style is played out when those who work within it find themselves unable to do anything but repeat what's essentially been done before. it's not a judgement to be handed to someone else. if a 400 year old form is perfectly suited to someone's original vision about the world they live in, then power to them. it may not the most likely case, but i'd never say it's impossible.

I think a good example in "photography" would be Chuck Close's Daguerreotypes (but I think it unlikely that's all he's going to do from hereon in though)

for what it's worth, i just looked up some histories on mozart, and found that he DID imitate bach for a period after he discovered bach's compositions. not surprisingly, though, those derivative pieces are not the one's he's known for. and they're apparently not the ones he was most happy with either; he quickly evolved the style into his own voice, using it as a jumping-off point rather than an end in itself.

And although he did it in rapid succession, Van Gogh in Paris whipped through copying - very competently - all the popular styles of the day before abandoning them (he sort of did it, absorbed it, tossed it aside and moved onto the next)

[Ed K.]

By the first post definition, this thread might be competent, especially with the additional posts. It's probably not a very creative thread. Photographers have thrashed this one since the first few photographs, no?

On the other hand, it takes guts to post the question and start it again, considering all the purists and experts around here. Could it be that the "guts requirement" is related to creativity?

Is the post a search for the truth, an affirmation, or ? A truly creative artist doesn't need to ask anyone for advice or reassurances - in many cases, artists don't care what anyone else has to say; they have no time or energy to spare for such things.

Ah the poor photographer, whose technical expertise yearns to have recognition from the art world. A few nods come from the critics, yes, yet then how it seems to come down to comparisons to the great painters.

At least breathing "creates" carbon monoxide! If one is the creative, then whatever the creator believes is enough when money or recognition are no object. The reverse is when, for example, money is in the range of values - then a paying audience in many ways becomes at least part of the creative force.

Ooops - I know nuth-zing...beter quit while ahead. Good on ya KG and others for caring about such things instead of only the latest lenses...

[Robert Hughes]

i have a gigantic wooden table in my loft ...it was used for nude models to pose on at UNM.

i'm wondering if witkin ever used it ... and i'm hoping all the models were living.

LOL! At the photo center I go to, the print darkroom has a long table that holds all the chemicals in one tub. Last week or so, I learned its original function - autopsy table!

[Kirk Gittings]

I remember the wooden table (or a wooden table) that was around in one of the studios from 68-73. As I remember it though, Witkin always worked in his own private studio. He was a mature student when he came liked to work in private.