Arca-Swiss F line 'Field' or Ebony SW45s?

[barryp]

Hi all,

Firstly, apologies for another newbie 'which first camera?' thread.

I am deliberating between the Arca-Swiss F line 'Field' (which is an F-Line 6x9 with a tapered bellows and a 4x5" back) and the Ebony SW45s as my first LF camera:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Monorail.html

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/c..._detail&p=2310

I am interested in these 2 cameras particularly due to their wideangle capability. I will be shooting landscapes only, with a plan to eventually have a 4 lens system (65, 90, 150, 240).

Questions:
1. In real world use, can either camera utilise full movements at both the 65mm and 240mm lens range?
2. Which would be easier to set up and which easier to focus?
3. The Ebony is appealing because it is relatively light but it only has front/back 'centre' tilt whilst the AS has 'base' tilt. Can I assume base tilt is preferable for landscape work?

Any advice or comments from those who are familiar with either camera, or both, would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Barry

[ljb0904]

Hi Barry, I'll help how I can.

First have you use large format before? I'll repeat what everyone says. Go rent a system first if you haven't. If you have, do you really want to spend that much money? You can drop less than a $1000 for a Tachihara, Shen-hao, or a used Toyo AX (at about $1000) and have lots of money left over for further photography expenses (scanner, drum scans, prints, printer, show displays, film, processing, etc). Unless you're going to do close-ups or shallow DOF work, I haven't found precision movements to be the limiting factor in using a LF camera.

That being said, I have the AS field and I love it. It's easy to use, not too heavy (considering I was thinking of moving to a 6 lb field camera) and the movements feel very good in the hand. The basic collapsable rail that comes with the setup is _just_ long enough to focus my Fuji 240 at around infinity. If you want closer you _will_ need to get an extension rail.

I also use a tachihara and can honestly say the two advantages of using the AS are: mental and back-focussing. Other than a couple of images I've made, the tachi is more than enough camera for most work in landscape. But for close up work, back standard focussing is really helpful.

I don't have any experience with the ebonies, except to say they are nice cameras and have more movements than you can shake a stick at. I think you would get used to axis tilt for near/far focussing.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, I've been using my 4x5s for only a year and got the AS a couple months ago.

Have fun
Laurent

[JPlomley]

I had an Ebony SV45TE for a few weeks, then swapped it out for the Arca Swiss F-Field camera. The Arca is more rigid, the focussing mechanism is smoother (and has friction control), when unlocked the standards can be moved and they stay in position-no need to focus-lock-tilt-lock-refocus...you can avoid the locking steps altogether (until the end), there is a scale on the monorail making focus spread determination straightforward, the OEM screen is MUCH MUCH better than the Ebony (prepare to replace the Ebony screen with a Maxwell for about $275), the MicroOrbix option gives a front axis tilt which is geared, the standard bellows on the Arca is almost a bag bellows which allows lenses from 45mm to 360 mm to be used (i.e. no having to swap bellows), and the swing and shift are decoupled. On the Ebony swing and shift were coupled such that when the lever was loosened, the entire rear standard would sag, meaning that after the swing movement was detemined, the focus would be lost when the standard was re-tightened. This drove me nuts and was a serious point of contention. There are several other issues I had with the Ebony, however, I do not wish to start a bashing session. There are a lot of users that seem to get on fine with them. They are a beatiful piece of craftsmanship, but in real world shooting, I found them to be just too finnicky to be practical.

O.K. I know I'm going to get nailed by all of the Ebony fanatics...

[Ted Harris]

Before the Ebony folks chime in let me add yo jeff's post that it will depeend a lot on what you want to shoot. Keep in mind that your first LF amera is very seldom your last and that eitehre one of the mentioned cameras is ery much overkill for most landscape shooters. I strees most because it isn't true for all. If you have never been out in the field with a LF camera then renting, if possible, is a great idea. Going to a workhop where you can experiment, is another.

[Frank Petronio]

smells like a troll...

[Herb Cunningham]

I have owned three Ebony's two Arca's. I still have the Arcas. the ebony RW would have to be my favorite for landscape IF I only wanted to use from 75mm to 250mm lenses. It would cover those with no problems, it is light, cheap (for an Ebony).

I suggest you get your hands on one or the other for a trial. Maybe a used one from one of the dealers who will take it back after 30 days-most will.

There is no perfect camera. You can drive yourself nuts with gear choices. Main thing is what kind of prints you make.

[Jack Flesher]

You've gotten good advice already above, but I'll add my two-cents since I own both an Arca and an Ebony. FTR, the Arca I own is the F-Metric with Orbix (front orbital/axial tilt) and the Ebony is the 45SU. My main lenses are similar to yours: 65, 90, 150 and 300.

Your questions,

1) The 65 SA allows like 3mm of movement before you run out of IC on 4x5. EITHER camera will allow for infinity focus plus 3mm of rise or the tiny bit of front tilt you can get on a NORMAL lensboard. HOWEVER the base-only tilt of the Arca classic combined with its thicker, stiffer 141x110 leather bellows (the 141x141 Metric has a very flexible synthetic bellows) will create problems as tilt also adds extension between the standards with forward tilt, and you have precious little room with the thicker bellows to move the standards back closer together. So IF you choose the Arca, I'd be sure to at least get one with Orbix, especially if you plan on using wide lenses and tilt a lot. Lastly, the 45S has the standard bellows and it is also stiffer than the 45SU's "universal" bellows, so it may inhibit front motion with shorter lenses. SO here I would suggest at the very least getting the Universal bellows if you choose the 45S. In truth, the 45SU is probably more ideal for your stated uses -- more on this in the next questions...

1a) The Arca or the Ebony will be fine with the 240, both allowing for reasonably close focus.

2) The 45S is already "set up" since you don't have to fold it, so it is fast. The Arca is fast too, especially if you leave you base clamp on your tripod and just slip the main rail into it. But the 45S/SU are the fastest here.

2a) Focus... Both focus similarly. Orbix on the Arca and the axial tilt on the 45S makes any tilt focusing a *lot* faster in the field over base tilt, IMO. You can get there with base tilt, just faster with axial since the standards stay at relatively constant separation. HOWEVERBUT!!! The 45SU (and all other assym Ebony's) with its assymetric rear tilt and swing make field focus an absolute breeze in the "real world" field environment. With it, there is no going back to fine tune focus after a tilt or swing -- used properly, you focus, tilt or swing, lock down and shoot, period. (For more detail on this, search the Ebony website.) By comparison, with axial or base tilt, there is almost always some touch-up focus adjustment required after the tilt or swing.

3) Not really, see above. However, base tilt has it uses... A common wideangle landscape scenario would have the camera angled down to include a foreground element along with the distant. Here you can focus on the far, then "pull" the top of the back toward you using base tilt. This accomplishes extending the PoF as with a front forward tilt and serves double-duty as bringing the rear standard back toward level, which in turn lessens perspective distortions. But it also spreads the standards a bit more than needed and requires a focus touch up. Regardless, pulling the back with base tilt is another viable field focus technique. Of course this same thing can be accomplished quite similarly with rear axial tilt, though it doesn't spread the standards enough and usually requires a focus touch up in the other direction. OTOH, again the Ebony assymetrical rear tilt when used properly eliminates the need for any focus touch up...

In conclusion, either camera will be a great first choice, but an Arca with Orbix or Ebony with assymetric rear movements will make your life easier and probably be a lot closer to your "ideal" camera.

Cheers,

[JPlomley]

Going to a workhop where you can experiment, is another.

I would like to add that specifically going to Ted's workshop helped tremendously in finalizing my decision about both camera and lenses. I learned more from Ted in two days than I ever would have learned on my own in probably two months. I also took a one day introductory workshop with Rob Skeoch and was hooked right away. I highly recommend both of these top drawer instructors. Sure workshops are a bit of money that might be hard to justify when first starting out since the temptation is to buy first and then learn. But the way I look at it is that I have saved money in the long term by not wasting as much film making newbie mistakes, and I nailed down the best equipment for my requirements early in the game. In my experience, workshops also help expedite getting over that initial steep learning curve so that one can get on with the huge enjoyment factor associated with LF imaging. Not to mention they are just plain fun!

[JPlomley]

One thing I did fail to mention is that Ebony support was first rate as I was trying to work through some of the issues I was having. In the end it was just not the right camera for me.

If you end up buying an Arca Swiss, I can highly recommend Rod Klukas at Photomark. For something specialized like this, deal with someone who knows what they are doing. Rod knows this product inside and out and is usually very well stocked. B&H is fine for buying digital phooey, but my dollars go to the smaller specialty shops where I can call anytime and speak with an expert. There's a lot to be said for building a good relationship with your dealer (Rod actually sent along with my camera a great article he wrote for students that attend his workshop-it was the best primer I have ever read).

[Jack Flesher]

I meant to add one more comment to my already too-long post above:

If I personally had to choose only one camera for field work with 4x5 film, it would be the Ebony 45SU.

/