New article, setting expsure by Ev

[al olson]

Hi Doug,

I am not at all familiar with the LVS that was used by Polaroid. The scale used by my Retina IIIc goes from light value 2 to 18. An LV of 2 gives an exposure of 1 second at f/2. An LV of 18 sets the exposure to f/22 at 1/500 sec.

An internet search verifies that this camera was introduced in 1954 and produced until 1957 when it was superceded by the big 'C' version, produced until 1960. The following URL will give you a descriptive page from one of the manuals that is slightly more recent than mine:
http://intranet.beaufort.gloucs.sch....iic_page5.html
This page from the manual provides instructions for setting the light value scale.

The following site refers to the Retina IIIC (big 'C' as opposed to the little 'c' version) as using the Exposure Value System:
http://elekm.net/pages/cameras/retinaiiic-big.htm
1957 may be when the terminology was changed from LVS to EVS. ???

[As an interesting sidelight, the Type 117 Retina, introduced in 1934, was the first camera to use the Type 135 film cassette. It was due to the popularity of the Retina that Kodak made Type 135 a standard.]

There are still thousands of these cameras around and if they are in good condition they will sell used for several hundred dollars. If you do a search on Kodak Retina or Kodak Retina IIIc and you will find a more complete history of the Retina series.

Until I read your paper I was unaware that this concept had been carried over to the Graflex lenses. I have never seen one with EVS. However, considering the close relationship between Kodak and Graflex it does not surprise me. Based on your paper, it appears that sometime between 1954 and 1958 the concept had become more formalized.

I hope this information is useful.

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Al,

Some research last night on the Kodak Retina cameras indicates to me that the setting system used on various of the Retina models was in fact based on the bona fide Ev scale (which I should have guessed from your description of its onset in that camera.)

The research was largely motivated by the fact that a friend gave me last night (at the party celebrating his election to the Dallas City Council!) a lovely Kodak Retina I (Type 010). It is equipped with a Schneider-Kreuznach Retina-Xenar f/3.5 5 cm (50 mm) lens in a Compur-Rapid shutter (size 00). It is in exquisite condition, and comes in an original leather case in quite nice condition.

Of course the 010 (whose era is said to be 1945-1949) did not have Ev or LV exposure setting.

Best regards,

Doug

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Al,

I sent my note this morning before seeing yours!

Thanks for the additional information and the links. It is very helpful.

The "LV" scale on your " III little c" is in fact the bona fide Ev scale.

Thanks again for all your help in this area (which of course takes on new signficance due to my new acquisition).

Best regards,

Doug

[al olson]

Doug,

I think there is a lot more history here than I first realized. Didn't Kodak make a lot of lenses for Graflex? Perhaps someone can help me out. Was the Graflar shown in Doug's paper made by Kodak? Perhaps that would explain the use of EVS on a large format lens.

An interesting question would be: Who holds the patent on this exposure system? AFIK, it does not occur on many other lenses. Polaroid shifted the scale. Was this to avoid patent issues? Or did they make some sort of deal?

Now days people who write reviews of the old Retinas scoff at this system for being awkward. However, it was strides better than anything else we had until the automatic exposure that came many years later. The nice feature is that it's very easy to select either the desired aperture or the shutter speed with the coupled aperture/shutter changing in parallel -- just like programed exposure on the automatics.

[Doug Kerr]

Al,

On your Retina IIIc, is the LV scale actually marked "LV"?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Al,

Until I read your paper I was unaware that this concept had been carried over to the Graflex lenses.

Here is the Prontor SVS size 3 on my new Century Graphic (c. 1964). It is annotated (it will appear in Issue 2 of the article on setting expsure by Ev) and the base picture is a bit low in resolution (it was extracted from the seller's picture on Not Sotheby's - I'll take one here today now that the camera is here).



Best regards,

Doug

[al olson]

Actually, Doug, the lens mount on your Graflar lens looks stunningly similar to the lens mount on my IIIc as can be noted in the image shown on the right at:
http://intranet.beaufort.gloucs.sch....iic_page5.html
...except for the fact that the light value scale is engraved in reverse order as is the shutter scale.

This link to the same web site brings up a thumbnail index of all of the pages of the user manual.
http://intranet.beaufort.gloucs.sch....iic_index.html

To answer your question there is nothing engraved on the camera that denotes the scale as being LVS, only from the user manual is it referred to as "light values". However, in past searches for Retina information/history I have seen the IIIc cameras referenced as having the "Light Value System". Apparently this terminology changed to "Exposure Value System" in 1957 when the IIIC version was introduced with the larger viewfinder and a different exposure meter.

Of the folding Retinas, the LVS/EVS was only used on the unmetered IIc and the metered IIIc/IIIC series. The II series had a f/2.8 lens and the III had a f/2. The II and III had rangefinders. On the following web site, the author mentions LVS and EVS in the "Shutter Assembly" section about the IIc.
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/retina.html

But Kodak apparently used the LVS terminology for the nonfolding s-series rangefinder cameras (1959-1960), at least according to this web site:
http://www.cameraquest.com/ret3s.htm
[Also note the comment that the author finds using LVS to be a pain. You can tell that he is not from the pre-AE generation.]

When Kodak introduced the Retina Reflex line (ca. 1958), replacing the rangefinder line, they apparently dropped the use of EVS on the reflexes. By the early 70s, German reflex production could not compete with the Japanese and Kodak gave up production.

As I recall from the reviews in Popular Photography, Modern Photography, et al, back in 1954-1955, this system was being touted as the future way to go in photography. This was one of the selling points when I purchased my camera, as well as having the light meter in the camera (I had never been able to justify the cost of a light meter before) and the f/2 lens.

It is curious as to why it never caught on with most of the other manufacturers. This is why I believe that patents were involved and they were not willing to pay the royalties. It is a shame that this system was not more widely accepted.

I have been learning a lot from this discussion.

[Vaughn]

Am I correct in assuming this is the same system my first TLR Rolleiflex had? (f3.5, ser no 1712201).

The back of the camera has a chart with pictures (of dofferent types of scenes) with corresponding EV numbers, with corrections for time-of-day and cloud conditions. One's chosen EV could then be set on the wheel on the front and locked in.

I prefer working with the "EV" values on my Luna pro and the numbers on my Pentax Didital Spot. The last thing I do is determining the actual F/stop and shutter speed.

[al olson]

Vaughn,

I am not aware of anything about EVS on the TLR Rolleiflex, but it sounds like the same system. My Sekonic also reads in EVS and these values are the same as the LVS for setting exposure on my Retina.

Do you have any idea when your Rolleiflex was manufactured? I would guess that it was between 1954 and 1960. Some of the press photographers I worked with in the 1959-1961 time period were using Rolleiflexes, but I don't recall that they had EVS. Convincing the editors that they were just as good as a Speed or Crown Graphic was a very hard sell, but they succeeded and the TLRs became more popular for press photography.

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Al,

Thanks so much for the wealth of information.

Actually, it looks from pictures I have seen as if the LV/Ev systems were also used on the Retina Ib/IB (IB was metered but with no rangefinder!).

This is an early Retina 1b (type 018):



This is a Retina 1B (type 019):



[The later Ib (type 010/0) also has a meter and looked like that.]

I assume the stuff at the bottom of the shutter is the LV/Ev indicator/setting lever.

Here is another picture of that area on a IB (019):



Great stuff! I didn't know anything about the Retina line until just before midnight this past Saturday!

Thanks again so much.

Best regards,

Doug