Soft-proofing problem -- Out of gamut?

[Josh Z.]

Hi, I'm not exactly completly new to working in Photoshop, I've printed a number of prints with no real problems... However I've run into a problem that I just can't seem to overcome. I have a Tango drum scan of a 4x5" Fuji Velvia sheet, and I have adjusted it within Ektaspace to just what I wanted. Nothing new there. When I went to soft-proof it (WCI's Chromira Glossy profile. perceptual) I was disappointed as the brilliant saturated red turned orange-ish. Still, nothing really new with that. However much I try with differnet adjustment layers, I can't get anywhere near the red that the original image had. I've tried all sorts of combinations of curves, levels, hue/saturation, color-balance, etc... Pretty much everything I have tried has yeilded sub-par results. The reds most effected (those that basically turned orange) are all out of gamut (from the gamut warning option).

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm all out of ideas and am at my wits end.

Thanks,
-Josh

[neil poulsen]

Probably a good starting point is to ask whether your monitor is calibrated and profiled?

[Josh Z.]

Yes, it's profiled. I've gone through the same motions at least a dozen times (scan, adjust, soft-proof for WCI chromira, resize, send off to print) without problem. This time though I can't get the soft-proof to come close (in the reds) to the original. I haven't tried having a test print done as so far every soft-proof has been pretty accurate with the print that comes back.

Thanks,
-Josh

[neil poulsen]

Maybe their printer is weak in reds? What kind of printer is it? Also, do they have their profiles available for download? If so, which profile for which paper?

It might be interesting to softproof a printer target. The one I'm thinking of has over 900 patches that span the entire spectrum of what the printer's capable of printing. It could give you an idea of the variety of reds the printer is capable of producing. (According to the profile, if it's accurate.) I could send you a tiff.

[Bruce Watson]

When I went to soft-proof it (WCI's Chromira Glossy profile. perceptual) I was disappointed as the brilliant saturated red turned orange-ish. ...Pretty much everything I have tried has yeilded sub-par results. The reds most effected (those that basically turned orange) are all out of gamut (from the gamut warning option).

To start, there aren't any printers out there than can print even very close to the gamut of Ektaspace. I assume you know this however. Also, I assume you realize that the gamut of your film exceeds any of the commercial printing technologies. So you know that you are never going to get a print that matches your slide, yes? Then it's a matter of getting closer than you can with a Chromira and Fuji Crystal Archive paper.

Since you are using WCI, pull their ICC profiles for their inkjet printers, particularly their Epson 9800. That should give you more gamut, particularly in the dark shades. Red will also be better but perhaps still a problem.

Your best bet right now is probably one of the new HP printers (Z3100) or Canon (iPF8000, iPF9000). Both of these printers have separate red inks and have somewhat wider gamuts than the more conventional Epsons, particularly in the primary (R, G, and B) colors.

You'll probably have to leave WCI to do this, but look around. There are other printer service bureaus out there running these and other printers.

[Jack Flesher]

Try soft proofing it with an Epson K3 profile for Premium Luster paper and I think you'll be extremely happy with the result. The problem is simply the limited gamut of the Chromira.

Cheers,

[Adam Kavalunas]

I've been wondering about this myself lately. I have some great fall color images with nice deep reds. I use Photocraft for printing, specifically lightjets, which i've heard have one of the largest gamuts possible. The only color i have trouble with is reds. Soft proofing they look orangy, and also come back in the print like that. I dont understand why soft-proofing with another profile will help. All that is going to do is change the way it apperas on screen, not in a print right?

[Jack Flesher]

Yes and no... Softproofing attempts to display colors as accurately as possible, but the priority is displaying the color in a relative fashion. Keep in mind it has to do this within the confines of the monitor color space which is usually smaller than most modern printer spaces.

A printer/paper combination that delivers better reds will show this in a soft-proof and in the print, but those colors won't necessarily match. So in reality, one needs to interpret how that which the softproofing engine displays is going to appear on their particular printer and paper combination; it is a guide, not a true proof...

[Ken Allen]

which i've heard have one of the largest gamuts possible.

The labs are lying to you to try to save their investment in out moded technology. The traditional chromogenic papers do not have the gamut of the latest pigment ink printers. The new printers especially the Canon Lucia ink series has a greater gamut than a digital c-print.

I've been in the photo business for over 25 years and it's quite rewarding to see the colors I can now get off of my Canon IPF9000. With most images it's no differenct than my Epson 9800, but when an image has tough reds, pinks and light greens it shines.

Best,
Ken Allen
kenallenstudios.com

[Ted Harris]

I am just now beginning to test the Canon printers (an ipf5000 here) and I can already, after just a few prints, partially echo Ken's comments above. I say partially because my experience is just too limited right now. This afternoon I pulled two prints that were full of New England Fall Foliage and I compared both of them to prints from the same chromes made a few weeks ago on an Epson 4800 and I definitely liked what I saw.