Marketing Question: 5x7 Film Holders

[Michael Kadillak]

Regarding the Toyo deal. Am I correct that there is still no firm committment from Toyo to make the holders? Further, I have seen no indication at all of price.

What is most important to me is Fortoman's firm decision to go ahead and make the holders while Gary is still waiting for an answer from Toyo. Sorry to be the cynic here but my gut tells me that, at the end of the day, Toyo isn't going to come through. BTW, I am a fan of Toyo products and use a Toyo AII regularly.

I guess Ted it all depends upon how one choses to look at this situation.

I have Toyo 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film holders and I like them. Toyo has made 5x7 holders in the past so strictly from a business perspective I feel that Toyo has a "leg up" over the new kid on the block because Toyo has already made the infrastructural investment in the tooling for the holders and therefore it is only materials, overhead and profit into the decision to do the deal or say no thanks.

But at the end of the day each company has to wrap their hands around the size of the forward market because that is all that matters. Toyo's decision from a risk perspective is highly mitigated because they will quantify the production numbers within the offering. If the market can swallow the costs it is a no brainer and there is no downsize for Toyo as they will have no forward expectations for 5x7 beyond this possible deal. I contend that while 5x7 is a popular size within large format, even if you can manage start up costs very efficiently the size of this market segment as a function of time and the associated return on this investment from square one is highly problematic. By nature I am not a negative person - I am a businessman and this is a business decision.

Could that be why current manufacturers of 5x7 holders bailed out? Surely they have the internal sales figures to fall back on. Fear buyers do not prop up a long term trend line and as a result these numbers would be nothing more than an anomolous blip in the sales trend.

Should be very interesting how this plays out. I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

Just my $0.02.

[Ted Harris]

FWIW regarding the current manufacturers, let that read manufacturer meaning the Fidelity/Lisco/Riteway facility owned by Calumet's parent company, they made the decisionto drop out of the entire film holder business. AFAIK the molds are nearly or completely worn out. The production staff was laid off about a year ago. All the new 4x5, 5x7 8x10 (same for equivelent metric sizes) holders that have been coming into the retail market in the past year (perhaps longer) have been assembled by the few remaining employees from existing parts.

I can only guess but I suspect that it was not just the current and projected market size that led to that decision. I'd bet that extremely high retooling and related costs were at least as important a factor. This was not a modern production facility.

Michael, like you, I wish the best of luck to everyone and only hope that the eventual decisions and products will meet the need of our admitedly small niche market.

[David Karp]

If I am not mistaken, Fotoman is a joint venture located in China. One of the wild cards in the LF world from most of our perspectives is the domestic market in China. Most of us just don't know enough to even hazard a guess. Maybe Fotoman knows something.

What percentage of the Chinese market is involved in LF today? There are several Chinese companies building cameras for this market (and others). I have heard anectdotal reports that interest in LF and ULF is growing in China. What if this includes interest in 5x7 or Whole Plate or whatever? What percentage of that market alone would be enough to justify building cameras, making film, or offering film holders?

Personally, I hope that the Chinese domestic LF market is growing. If yes, that along with the rest of us may just keep film and LF alive for a while.

From a marketing perspective, if I saw an opportunity that was available because a former potential competitor was reluctant or slow to reenter a product in the market place, and I saw an opportunity to satisfy the market need at a reasonable price that would make me a profit, I would take it. And if, perhaps, I could cover my tooling cost with some pretty sure orders and then have a product that I could offer to that percentage of a billion people that is also interested in the product, all the better.

This is not to denigrate anything Gary or Toyo is working on. Its just the nature of competition.

[Nick_3536]

OK everyone, we have made our decision... and WILL BE manufacturing the 5x7 film holders. The anticipated selling price is $50.00, though likely slightly less.

That being said, the details of the current commitments for the 5x7 film holders is not entirely clear and trackable. So to better account for this, I would ask that you email me directly, clearly stating your purchasing commitment... (paul.droluk@fotomancamera.com).

Could you tell us a bit more of the process? Would there be a dealer handling things? All direct?

[Paul Droluk]

If I am not mistaken, Fotoman is a joint venture located in China. One of the wild cards in the LF world from most of our perspectives is the domestic market in China. Most of us just don't know enough to even hazard a guess. Maybe Fotoman knows something.

What percentage of the Chinese market is involved in LF today? There are several Chinese companies building cameras for this market (and others). I have heard anectdotal reports that interest in LF and ULF is growing in China. What if this includes interest in 5x7 or Whole Plate or whatever? What percentage of that market alone would be enough to justify building cameras, making film, or offering film holders?

David, the market for all types of cameras, and photography in general, is growing rapidly in China. This is purely a function of the rising levels of disposable income and leisure time. But like elsewhere, the predominence of the market is for digital cameras. Interestlingly, cameras manufactured in China are a very hard sell in China. No one knows better the negative legacy of "made in China" better than the Chinese themselves. Once they are in a postion to purchase, they lust after the products from the German or Japanese manufacturers. For example, I am told that China is Alpa's and Linhof's largest market. I don't doubt it, as I see Alpa's and Linhof's more often than our own cameras when I go to functions or am out shooting.

5x7 and Whole Plate are totally unknown formats in China, though 4x5 and 8x10 have a happy following. 8x10 in particular is enjoying considerable growth. We are hoping to aid in the growth of the 5x7 & WP formats with the availability of our new products. Our partner Li "Charlie" Chun does regular seminars all through the country, which are attended by large audiences due to his status as one of the premier photographers in China.

[Paul Droluk]

Could you tell us a bit more of the process? Would there be a dealer handling things? All direct?

Nick... we would like to handle as many of the 1st run orders on a direct basis as we can. Pure economics, we make more profit selling directly and will be trying to recoup our tooling investment (read large) in as short a period of time as possible. However, other than for the initail run orders, customers will most likely be purchasing from one of our numerous dealers.

[David Karp]

. . . like elsewhere, the predominence of the market is for digital cameras.

Paul,

Thanks for the information.

I am hoping that a small percentage of a billion people when added to the rest of the world will help to keep b&w film factories going for a while.

Get Charlie out there "pushing" LF and film. Times a wastin!

[mike currie]

Great News!
I would be interested in ten 5x7 film holders. Would you have an idea of the postage costs to the United Kingdom via a sign for service.
Thank You

[Stephen Willard]

I moved to 5x7 because its is very close to 8x10 image quality without all the draw backs of weight, expense to purchase, expense to operate, and DOF from larger lenses. The big draw back is lack of film. If this could be solved then 5x7 I believe would take off.

So here is my proposal to address the lack of film. I want a 5x7 film holder that will hold either a 5x7 sheet of film or a 5x8 sheet of film. In either case the opening is 5x7. If I choose to use 5x8 film I can remove some stops in the film holder to allow for the longer 8" sheet film to fit.

Why do I want to use 5x8. Well because I cut my film from 8x10. With 5x8 I need only make one cut just like I do for my 4x10 film. When I cut my own 5x7 from 10 sheets of 8x10, I first make the 5" cut which requires 10 passes. Now I have 20 sheets I need to trim down from 8" to 7" requiring a total of 30 cuts. This is very time-consuming and has the potential to increasing dust contamination. If I could use a 5x8 sheet then I would only make 10 cuts, and after processing the film I could trim the remaining 1" off in full daylight which is easy, and I do not have to worry about dust.

Boy do I want a 5x8/5x7 film holder with a 5x7 opening!!! The extra inch of film holder sticking out would not bother me at all because this film holder would greatly simplify cutting 5x7 film in total darkness.

[Paul Droluk]

Film Holder Update... for all those interested, we are pretty much on schedule. We wound up making three pre-production runs of our guinea pig 4x10 holder to experiment with different plastic formulations. While this delayed us by a couple of weeks, it proved quite valuable... we will be using ABS-PC as opposed to the pure ABS which we initially had specified. ABS-PC, while 10% heavier, provides a much harder surface which will wear much less over the years.

Net-net, it looks like LATE July or early August for delivery.