Discontinuance of Arca-Swiss Discovery

[r.e.]

[i]
but, yes,I agree, since the number of Spanish / Hispanic speakers (and potential Arca Swiss customers) who, as far as know, have no mandatory regulations to speak English (about 27 million people according to the CIA, https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...us.html#People )....

... then, Martin Vogt should take an intensive course in US-Spanish to better serve this potentially growing population of customers (at least if I read and understand correctly what Wikipedia says about the US population in the near future).

And since the proportion of Hawaian people interested by LF is probably much higher than in the other Fifty States, and since Hawaian is, according to the same CIA report, one of the official languages in the State of Hawai, Martin Vogt should probably take an intensive course in Hawaian as well if he wants to deal with Hawaian customers.

Good Lord, how could a simple question about whether Arca-Swiss should tell us what its intentions are about the future of 171mm degenerate into personal attacks on individuals and, apparently now, attacks on entire cultures?

All I did was suggest that large format photographers, as a community, might ask Arca-Swiss what its position is about 171mm support. People can say that asking that question is a good idea or a bad idea. Hopefully, whether it is a good question can be discussed without personal attacks. It appears that there are a number of people who think that the question should not be asked. That's fine. Just explain your view, preferably without attacking and/or being condescending toward other people. As of yesterday, this was just a matter of Mr. Thalmann going after me. Now, apparently, it is a matter of ripping people who speak Spanish. With all due respect, this isn't cool. In fact, it is getting really ugly.

So let me repeat the question. Is there some point in the large format community, as a community, asking Arca-Swiss what its position is on 171mm support? Maybe the question should be asked, maybe it shouldn't. But surely it is possible for people to talk about this, preferably with mutual respect.

[Dave Parker]

Being honest with you r.e. as a manufacture, I don't think it really matters much if the question is asked or not, apparently the company has made their choice, as a manufacture, the reason to discontinue a product has to do with two simple facts:

1. Is it still making money?

2. Can we do it better..

That is really the only reasons to change product lines, of course, if it is not making money, they it makes no sense to continue making it. If they have found a way to do it better, then their future offerings will make us aware of it....

But for the mean time, there really is still a lot of options out there including ones that you can use to get the parts for your camera..

you really sound like your obsessing a bit over this

Dave

[Dave Parker]

Kerry,
I'm sure it never occured to you but...I mean...after all you *ARE* Kerry Thalmann.

Well now Brad, I do have to say, you were quite interesting in your statement?



Dave

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

All I did was suggest that large format photographers, as a community, might ask Arca-Swiss what its positon is about 171mm support. People can say that asking that question is a good idea or a bad idea. Hopefully, whether it is a good question can be discussed without personal attacks. It appears that there are a number of people who think that the question should not be asked. That's fine. Just explain your view, preferably without attacking and/or being condescending toward other people. Hopefully that ain't difficult.

r.e.,

I went back and re-read the entire exchange from last night. I apologize for any part I played in leading the discussion of track.

I personally don't "think that the question should not be asked". nor have I seen anyone else suggest it shouldn't be asked. What I did suggest was that YOU be the one who does the asking.

When I re-read the previous night's discussions, I tried to see it from your perspective - as a new participant of this forum, and I think I may now have a better understanding of why the discussion went askew. I think it comes down to understanding what this forum is and how it works. From re-reading your posts, I got the impression you have participated in other online dsicussion groups that function differently than this one (sorry if that's not correct, it's just the impression I got). For example, you wrote:

"Maybe this forum, as a forum (i.e, in the name of the owner and membership), could do a lot of people a favour by sending a letter to M. Vogt and Ms. Graham-Henry asking for an answer to this question."

This forum doesn't have an owner. Quang-Tuan Luong is the original creator of this forum, but has never claimed ownership of the forum or it's content. It effectively belongs to everyone who participates. It has never functioned as unified body in any capacity. So asking the community to send a letter to ARCA-SWISS is like asking both no one, specifically, and everyone, in general, to write a letter. Unless someone steps forward and volunteers to write such a letter, it'll never get written. When I originally suggested you contact ARCA-SWISS directly with your question, I was effectively nominating you for the task. Who better to ask your question than you? This actually happens regularly here. Someone asks a question and no one knows the answer. So, the original poster contacts someone who can provide the answer and then closes the loop by posting their response.

You also wrote:

"Unless they are brain dead, of course they know that the question exists."

Perhaps ARCA-SWISS knows that some owners of 171mm cameras may want to know about their future plans, but as they don't monitor, or regularly participate in, this forum, they have no way of knowing the question exists HERE. Again, that was why I suggested you contact them directly with your question.

You may be wondering why they don't participate here. A legitimate question. I don't speak for ARCA-SWISS, but perhaps a little understanding of the history of this forum would help understand why ARCA-SWISS (and most other LF equipment manufacturers and LF dealers) elect not to participate.

One thing you might have noticed about this forum compared to photo.net, apug.org and other online forums is the complete lack of banner ads and links to sponsor' web site. This forum has no sponsors. Nor does it charge a subscription or any other fees. It is 100% non-commercial. That was the founder's original intent and has remained one of the basic principles of the operation of this forum in it's various incarnations. The goal has always been the free sharing of information without commercial bias or influence. It has always been maintained by volunteers and operated on donated resources. It was originally hosted on greenspun.com, and a few years ago some of the moderators at photo.net who were also responsible for maintaining greenspun.com decided unilaterally to move the discussion group and all of it's archives to the commercial photo.net service. They did so without Tuan's permission. You can read all about it here.

As a result, many members of this forum, including the original creator and many long time contibutors, staunchly defend the non-commercial nature of this forum. Unlike other forums where posts disappear and posters get banned simply or saying something negative about a sponsor's product, people here are welcome and encouraged to share their experiences, both positive and negative with the products they've personally used without any fear of retribution. IMHO, that makes it the best forum in existence for asking and receiving honest feedback on LF products. That doesn't mean we know everything, but what we do know we share freely, without bias.

I haven't been told this directly by ARCA-SWISS, but other manufacturers and LF equipment dealers have told me they don't participate here out of respect for the non-commercial nature of this forum. They don't want to risk offending potential customers should anything they post be construed as promoting products they make or sell. At least in this forum, it's better to let their satisfied customers spread the word than risk incurring the wrath of those violently opposed to any commercial use of this forum. Personally, I find it refreshing to visit a site where I'm not constantly bombarded with banner ads and pop-ups, or postings that are nothing more than thinly disguised infomercials. While many here probably wouldn't oppose allowing manufacturers, or their representatives, to answer questions (technically, such activity is not against any forum rules), it's a fine line and a bit of a slippery slope. If one manufactuer crosses that line, it's not fair to others who are willing play by the rules. Personally, I like things the way they are. People can ask and answer questions without any pressure to cowtow to any manufacturers or corporate sponsors. And, if they don't get a satisfactory answer, they can contact the manufacturer directly and report back what they learn.

Nobody here (that I have seen) opposes you or your question. In fact, I was trying to encourage you to ask it in the way that will most likely get a real answer and not just more idle speculation. Sorry if my intent wasn't clear and my comments caused the discussion to veer off track.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

r. e.,

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your concern about ARCA-SWISS ceasing production of the 171mm standards? Are you worried about not being able to get lens boards, replacement bellows, parts and service for your camera? Other than the frames themselves, lens boards and bellows, I can't think of anything on the Discovery that is 171mm specific.

The frames are quite sturdy, and other than something catastrophic, I can't imagine ever needing to replace them. And if they are ever destroyed, it might make sense at such a time to switch over to the 141mm standards.

171mm boards with various holes sizes seem to be in stock and availalble new from several ARCA-SWISS dealers. Personally, I prefer to use smaller, cheaper boards. So, I have both 171mm - 110mm and 171mm to Linhof style adapter boards or my ARCA-SWISS cameras. My 4x5/4x10 camera uses 110mm boards. So, the 171mm adapter allows me to share lenses on these boards with my 7x17 camera with the 171mm front end - and still have the option to use 171mm boards for lenses that are too big to fit on the smaller 110mm boards. I also bought the 171mm - Linhof style adapter as I have a bunch of Linhof compatible boards from a previous camera and it was cheaper to buy the adapter than a whole slew of new 171mm boards. The reason I mention this is that these adapter are still available new, and it just so happens Midwest Photo Exchange has used samples of each currently listed on their web site for less than $200. So, for a little more than the cost of two new 171mm boards you can have a solution that will insure a steady supply of lens boards for your camera for decades to come. Plus, both the 110mm ARCA and Linhof style boards are less expensive and WAY smaller than the big 171mm ARCA boards. Linhof compatible boards are a bit of a defacto standard in 4x5 field cameras. They are plentiful on the used market and very affordable generic Linhof compatible boards are available new from a number of sources.

Badger and B&H currently list bellows in both the 171mm and 141mm sizes. Given the fact that you can still have any current 171mm bellows attached to the frames of a 50year old pre F-Line ARCA-SWISS model, I'm not too worried about not being able to get a bellows replaced in my lifetime. Unless you manage to damage your current bellows frames beyond repair, you should always be able to get a new bellows attached to your old frames - and the last time I checked, Precision Camera Works stocks replacement bellows frames for just such instances.

I'm not trying to say your question and concerns aren't legitimate I'm just trying to suggest some options that may address some of your concerns.

Finally, as I haven't talked to ARCA-SWISS about the issue I don't want to speculate too much, but it is possible they stopped selling the Discovery in order to set aside the remaining 171mm components to insure an adaquate supply of repair and replacement parts for existing owners of 171mm standard cameras. Just a hunch on my part. You'd have to ask ARCA-SWISS or Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works to get an accurate asssessment of their stock of 171mm replacement parts.

Kerry