A bit of help for my son please?

[tenretni]

a bit of background:
A few years ago my son took an interest in the digital camera I bought. Since I considered any interest outside of video games and tv great I ended up buying a 35mm nikon slr. Over the next two and a half years he really got into photography and has stayed with it. This Christmas break he borrowed a local photographer's large format camera and even I was amazed at the difference in quality. He was going to spend most his money buying a cheap used one on ebay but I thought this might be a good thing for me to get him as an early graduation gift.

I spent some time reading up on large format cameras, a lot more too it than I originally thought, but was hoping for a bit of help in deciding which company/model to buy.

Here's some of the things I think he'll need:
Quality- I'd rather spend a bit more money now then to have him upgrade in a couple years.
4x5 field camera- he likes to do a lot of landscape/nature pictures and started hiking for pictures last year.
Rugged and able to put up with some wet weather- I'm sure he'll be careful but he is a teenager after all.
Decently fast to get up and ready from out of bag. (The camera he borrowed was a complex view camera that took way to long, in my opinion, to setup.


So far I was looking at the Wista 45V, Walker Titan SF, or Toyo-View 45AX.

Can anyone comment on the advantage/disadvantage of these? Or is there another brand/model you'd recommend?

Tripods... Are there any that would be better than another for him? He'll be carrying around a lot so it needs to be lightweight but still stable enough for somewhat uneven ground and winds.

While I don't have a set budget, I would prefer to stay under 4-5k for the entire camera setup, a couple lenses, and tripod.

Thank you,
Kristen

[vinny]

I'm sure you'll get a flood of answers in the morning.
Wow. I wish if my folks were that generous when i discovered photography. They thought/think i was/am crazy. This day and age with so many folks leaving film behind, i wouldn't buy anything new if i didn't have to. 95% of what own i've purchased from ebay and from online forums and nearly all of it you could never tell from new. My 4x5 is a shen hao and it's a great camera. If i had to get another 4x5 i'd maybe do a few things different. I've got a great system with several lenses and i've haven't spent maybe half the amount you're thinking of You may want to get him a camera that'll handle a variety of lenses including lenses up to 360mm. Something that can accept bag bellows if needed for short lenses.
Lenses, anything multicoated in a modern copal shutter. New nikkors are still available.
I highly recommend a gitzo 1325 carbon fiber tripod if he plans to hike. It's tall enough to set up on uneven surfaces and still allows for a comfortable working height and sturdy when fully extended. Add a pan/tilt tripod head or a geared head on top of that.
Film holders on ebay are dirt cheap.
Don't forget a harrison changing tent for reloading the film.

good luck

[Capocheny]

Hi Kristen,

I think Vinny has given you some sound advice and I'd also recommend a Shen-Hao as a first camera for your son. It's a reasonably priced camera and will serve him well for many years.

That said, many shooters find things they like/dislike about their first camera and, consequently, will change cameras over time. Secondly, your son may discover that he prefers a different format as well. So, I wouldn't suggest going into this purchase with a view toward it being his first and last.

Here's a link to Paul Butzi's website where he discusses how to select a camera:

http://www.butzi.net/articles/lfchoose.htm

For a lens, I'd recommend something like a 180 f5.6 or 210 f5.6. Most of the manufacturers out there (i.e.; Rodenstock, Schneider, Fuji, Nikon) make very decent lenses and you won't go wrong with any of them. Again, your son will find a style that he prefers and this style may dictate different focal length lenses running from wide-angle lenses to longer focal lengths. I would suggest leaving this decision up to him... but, you can always put the funds aside for the purchase when he decides.

As for tripods, you'll want something that is reasonably sturdy but doesn't weigh an excess amount. Vinny suggested a Gitzo 1325, which is a great way to start. That'll run you approximately US$500 on ebay. You'll also need a head for the tripod and I would whole-heartedly recommend a Manfrotto 410 or 405. The 410 will cost about US$200 and the 405 will cost approximately US$300 on ebay.

He'll also need a dark cloth and these will run you approximately $50 plus depending on the manufacturer. These can be purchased from Calumet.

Film holders are very reasonably priced these days. Again, you'll find a dearth of them on ebay.

Now, if you'd prefer NOT to go the ebay route, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the following retailers:

1. Jim at Midwest Photo - http://www.mpex.com

2. Jeff at Badger Graphics - http://www.Badgergraphic.com

3. Rob Skeoch - http://www.bigcameraworkshops.com

All three of these fellows will give you sound advice and are as honest as the day is long. If you'd prefer to buy "new" then they'll be able to help you on this end of things. If you'd prefer to buy "used," Jim and Jeff will be able to help you here. I don't know if Rob sells used gear but you can ask him.

When your son gets his camera and starts the learning process... here are some great resources to help him along:

1. The resource part of this website contains some very useful information:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

2. The following books are a must-read, IMHO:

a) Large-Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

b) Using the View Camera by Steve-Simmons

c) Users Guide To The View Camera - by Jim Stone (Look for the 2nd edition since it's more readily accessible and is less expensive.)

3. Here's another link to Paul Butzi's site where he gives terrific instructions on how to load a filmholder. It's indispensable!

http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm

Lastly, feel free to ask questions of the folks here on this forum... there's some very nice (and knowledgeable) people here who would be more than happy to lend a helping hand to both yourself and your son.

Well, I hope this helps you and your son on his journey to becoming a great LF shooter!

Cheers

[Juergen Sattler]

Kristen,

you got some great advice already. I just want to stress the point that it is very difficult to pick the perfect field camera - if not impossible. As strange as this might sound, but LF cameras are a very personal choice. I had to go through 6 different cameras before I found my perfect gear (a Canham DLC45) but for many other LF folks the Canham would not be acceptable.

Buy either a very reasonably priced new camera (a Shen Hao or Tachihara come to mind) or buy a used outfit. Both Jim ad Midwest as well as Jeff at Badger Graphics are a great source to get you the right gear.

For a three lens outfit I would recommend a 90mm wide angle, a 150mm normal lens and a 210 or 240mm short tele lens. Any of the modern lenses will serve him fine (Rodenstock, Schneider, Fuiji or Nikon). There are differences in how much some of these lenses cover (this is important if your son wants to use a lot of movements).
There is a great lenschart right here on the home page - here is the link - study it for awhile and it will answer most of the questions you might have reg. lenses - if this is too much information (it can be overwhelming) then just call Jim or Jeff and tell either one that you need help. http://www.largeformatphotography.in...s/LF4x5in.html

A gitzo carbon fiber tripod is perfect for a 4x5 camera - you already got very good advice from the other posters.

He'll also need a loupe to focus on the groundglass. Get him a 4x or 6x loupe (Rodenstock makes a very nice one, so does Schneider and Sivestri, but there are also tons of very cheap loupes on eBay that will work just fine.

A handheld lightmeter is also essential - many folks here really like the Pentax spotmeter - either digital or analog. Another very good lightmeter is the Seconic dual (sorry I forgot the model number) - it offers everything in a small package.

Other than that he'll need

- Darkcloth
- film holders (buy them on eBay - they are very cheap).
- a Polaroid film holder, Model 545 - this will help him to learn much faster because he will have instant feedback on his shot. The film is more expensive than regular sheets, but itis well worth the money, esp. for a beginner.
- Sheet film either B&W or color - very personal choice.
- some bag to fit all his gear into - most of us use backpacks - Lowpro Trekker is a good choice
- a changing bag or tent to load and unload film holders

I think that pretty much covers it. It is awfully nice of you to do this for your son - I am sure he will really, really appreciate it.

Don't hesitate to ask more questions - this is a great group of people and they will be happy to help you out.

Juergen

[Ted Harris]

Everything posted so far is right on now a few more things to ponder. Some from my 50 years of experience as a photographer and some from my very vivid memories of the day my father bought me my first 'real' camera. I'll start there .... let your son make the final choice since this is such a personal decision. In my case I had been using a Speed Graphic as the photographer for the Junior High newspaper and knew what I wanted (he didn't). I had also scouted the local camera store and found a fine Leica tht would have been perfect. Dad got talked into a shiny new camera with less than half the capability of the Leica that I had wanted. I can't remember ever using the camer much. Anyway, here it is more than 50 years later and the memory is still vivid so you get the idea. Now on to your choices.

From the three cameras you listed I am assuming that you/your son have a distinct preference for metal cameras as opposed to wood. Nothiong wrong with that, it is my preference as well. I have tried a number of wood cameras over the years and always went back to metal. I have used all three fo the cameras you mentioned (assuming you meant he Wista VX) and they all have strengths and weaknesses. I like the Wista the lest of the three because it seems the least well made to me, it just isn't as 'tight' as the other two. The Walker is a marvelous full featured camera and, assuming it is to your son's liking is a camera he will never outgrow. It does have two drawbacks though: 1) it is a bit fussy to to setup and take down and it has a large 'footprint' for a 4x5 field camera. I used one for several years and the only reason I got rid of it was that the 'footprint' made it very difficult to take on a plane as carryon. It absolutely meets yoru rugged standards, Mike often likes to show one getting washed in the shower. Finally, Mike Walker is a great guy and once you have a camera of his you are part of the family. This leaves the Toyo AX and this would be my choice, in fact it is my choice as I use a Toyo AII which is almost the exact same camera. I use the Toyo because it is compact (fits neatly into a small bag I can shove under my seat in any plane), allows me to do nearly everything I want in the field (I can use from 58mm through 360mm lenses and has plenty of movements), its large rubber covered knobs make the camera easy to use in the winter and to focus and adjust with gloves on. For field use it is unlikely that your son will often use a lens shorter than 75mm or longer than 300mm. The Toyo is sturdy, built like a tank and will take all the rough treatment that can be dished out. It is also very fast to setup, less than a minute from out of the bag to ready to focus. Final comment on the cameras ... feel free to contact me for more info on any of them and, if you live in a metropolitian area where you can actually look at any or all of these (unlikely with the Walker in most places) you should do so. If you do buy I will also strongly recommend Jim at Midwest or Jeff at Badger. If you buy from Jim he can sell you a like new used camera that you can return or exchange after trying it for a few weeks or so, something few if any other dealers will let you do. BTW, considering this is a first purchase and you may well want to make changes and adjustments I would strongly advise against eBay for obvious reasons; also you will likely pay Jim around the same as you would spend on eBay.

As for lenses something in the 150 to 210 range is the logical place to start and then a second lens that is either wider or longer. If you really are going to spend 4-5K you might even be able to squeeze 3 lenes into the budget (90 - 180 - 300). If you do get a longer lens make sure it is one of the smaller ones with a smaller maximum aperture that is good for field use.

Other bits and pieces. First no one mentioned the 'hood' type darkclothes maked by Black Jacket and BTZS, either oneof them would be my choice as they fold up small and attach to the camera nicely. Second, If you do get the Toyo AX (or the Wista) make sure you get the rear view hood which obviates the need for a dark cloth (I still use a dark cloth much of the time but it is nice to hve the hood and means I don't need to carry the darkcloth if space is tight). If he is going to use the hood a lot then he needs a loupe that is long enough and there are two choices there ... one fromn Wista and the other from Horseman. Finally the meter, if you can get a Pentax Digital Spot at a decent price then do so, otherwise any of the spotmeters from Soligar, Minolta or Sekonic will do fine.

Good luck and, as Jurgen said, ask away and feel free to send email or Private Messages too.

[photographs42]

Kristen,
If you live in or near a large city and you don’t intend for this to be a surprise gift, it would be good if you and your son could visit a store that sells large format equipment and let him have some input. If you don’t have access to actual cameras I still think it’s a good idea to get him involved in the selection. Almost any LF camera will work. If he “connects” with it in some way, whether it’s a visual feature or a mechanical one, he will enjoy it much more that if he perceives it as merely OK.

I second the vote for a Manfrotto/Bogen 410 tripod head.

Jerome

http://www.jeromehawkins.com/

[Jim Rhoades]

I strongly agree with Juergen about how difficult it is to find the perfect field camera. The best camera for me has the specifications that say it's the worst. It is a question of what handles the best, fastest, lightest, etc. Specs on bellows draw or movements do not tell the whole story. A modestly priced camera with a good lens/lenses that can go along with any camera upgrades is the way to go. He would be thrilled with a Tachihara or Shen-hao. A used Zone VI or Toyo 45AX is a good bet too. The Toyo AX is a all metal field camera that is quite tough.

[Ralph Barker]

While I haven't used either the Wista or the Walker Titan, I've owned a Toyo 45AX for 10 years or so. It's well made, and convenient to use. It does not, however, have interchangeable bellows, but I haven't found that to be too much of a limitation for non-architectural work. What I especially like about the Toyo line is that they use a somewhat modular design. Thus, some parts are interchangeable between their various models. That adds some flexibility should he eventually want to use a monorail for some types of work.

As to lens choices, you've already received good advice. You might, however, look at some of your son's images to get a sense of how he "sees" his subjects. Although a 150mm lens is considered "normal" for 4x5 (like a 50mm lens on 35mm cameras), many people "see" either wider or longer. If there is a pattern to your son's existing images (e.g. strong wide-angle compositions, or more remote telephoto shots), that may help you with lens selection.

[Jim Jones]

As Juergen says, the choice of a field camera outfit can be very personal. Your son is wise to consider used equipment first. After a year or two he'll have a good idea of how to invest in newer gear. Maybe he won't have to upgrade. My most expensive LF lens (35 years old and $140 secondhand) is decades newer than any of my other LF gear, and I don't expect to ever outgrow it. Used LF equipment holds value well. If he upgrades, he can resell it at modest loss.

Knowledge is the serious photographer's most valuable tool. No one book covers everything. View Camera Techniques by Leslie Stroebel is comprehensive. Other books may be more up-to-date and easier reads. Either of the two series by Ansel Adams are still useful. This forum and APUG are great resources. A google search for specific equipment can be quick and valuable. If a hundred hours of research can save a thousand dollars in equipment, it is time well spent.

[Jack Flesher]

Lots of good advice, but one point to add: While most that have been shooting LF for any length of time have a favorite camera (or three), we could probably make do with ANYTHING that held our favorite lenses and a filmholder.

To explain further, there seems to be a tendency to over-analyze specifications and needs when buying that first camera, only to find something different is wanted within the first 6 months... And that second camera is usually less complex (faster to set up) and and almost always one that is lighter in weight. Then after another 6 months you realize you really only need a simple dark box/bag that holds the lens on one end and a filmholder on the other while allowing you to adjust their relative positions...

Any of the cameras you've listed are excellent, but FWIW my recommendation is to make the first camera purchased a popular model as it will be easy to sell when and if you decide to "change" after a bit. Probably the two most popular current choices are one of the Ebony SV45's (U, U2 or TE) or an Arca Swiss F-line (many configurations, but get one with Micro-metric Orbix).

Lastly, for a beginner I HIGHLY recommend using Quick or Ready load films. They cost about 30% more per sheet over hand-loaded emulsions, but are significantly more convenient, lighter in weight, lower volume and lower in dust...

Cheers,