Roman Numerals in Zone System

[cyrus]

OK so it seems that people are touchy about the whole Zone System and BTZS thing ... so here's a question to take your minds off of that.

For all you photographic educators, is there a particular reason why Roman numerals continue to be used to designate zones? It not only seems just oh-so pretentious, but it probably makes it harder for people to learn (remember, most people tend to faint at the mention of the term 'Logarithm' and the sight of graphs anyway - and now you also expect them to handle terms like "Zone V"? You might as well speak Greek. Or Latin.)

After all, for example if you're working with half-zones how the heck can anyone be expected to divide using Roman numerals to express fractions? Having a bit of Latin under my belt, and an interest in mathematics I know that technically the 1/2 was represented by a "Sigma" symbol - as if remembering a bunch of symbols for various fractions makes life easier. In fact I was always curious how the Romans managed to run an empire when they were confronted with issues like how to divide MCCIXVI by CCVXX, or how to express 1/250th. Come to think of it, the Romans didn't have zeroes. That too came from India. How can there be a Roman numeral "0" Zone? I protest!

Go on, try give long division a whack if you can using just Roman numerals.

Then go thank God for them Ay-rabs and their Ay-rabic numerals (technically speaking, I believe the numerals are from India, brought to the west along with the checkbook and the guitar and chess by the Arabs)

I say lets get rid of the convention of using ROman numerals and start using regular Arabic numerals for the Zone steps.

In fact, since apparently computers are being put to use to calculate exposures in the BTZS, and an "Arab" (well, technically a Persian) mathematician developed the idea of the algorithm that computers use today, then I say we should skip from Roman numerals to Arab numbers to using base 2 numbers or even hexadecimal numbers. Then Zone V would be Zone 0b101. That would be great. Or maybe the Babylonian base-12 system...What's "V" in base 12?

[darr]

"Ansel Adams called the steps 'zones' and named the complete sequence from black to white, the Zone Scale. He also gave each step on the scale a unique number to make it easy to identify and visualise. He began with black as Zone O and white as Zone X. The other zones are numbered according to their relative position on the scale. See image below. Middle grey is always Zone V. Ansel Adams proposed the use of Roman numerals for clarity when referring to the zone scale (this takes a little getting used to at first but soon becomes intuitive)."

See: http://www.zone2tone.co.uk/technical.htm

[cyrus]

Ansel Adams proposed the use of Roman numerals for clarity when referring to the zone scale

Clarity? Clearer for whom, the Romans? What's clearer: "5" or "V"?
If V is clearer, then we might as well name the zones Dopey, Sneezy, Sleepy, Creepy and so on...

I know AA started it, but it doesn't have to be that way...

[darr]

Clarity? LOL!

I think if you get use to seeing "V" as middle gray and "O" and "X" as value end points on the scale, it gets clearer. You can always replace the Roman Numerals with Western "Arabic numerals" no one will argue with you. Well, I wouldn't anyhow.

[cyrus]

Actually come to think of it, if we do use Arabic numerals for zones, then I guess to be really really pointlessly nitpicky accurate about it, the numbers should increase in multiples of 2.

So zone 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 etc...then we can convert that to the Olmec numerical system of showing numbers using knots on bits of string...yeah!

[Bruce Watson]

...is there a particular reason why Roman numerals continue to be used to designate zones?

Yes, but you aren't going to like it. It's because "we've always done it that way." ;-)

For better or worse, it's become a "standard" of the notation. There are little ZS stick on lables for light meters, pre-printed forms for people to make field notes, etc... all using Roman numerals.

If you change it, you unleash a fair amount of confusion. Is that any reason to continue down this Roman numeral path? Who can say?

[Greg Lockrey]

Clarity? Clearer for whom, the Romans? What's clearer: "5" or "V"?
If V is clearer, then we might as well name the zones Dopey, Sneezy, Sleepy, Creepy and so on...


There is always somebody wanting to mess with tradition, ain't there.

[Michael Graves]

Why do we use Roman numerals? Because the man who invented the procedure defined it that way. If you invent a new system, feel free to use whatever characters you desire. Meanwhile, it's probably best if we let Ansel's system remain the way he defined it.

[cyrus]

Why do we use Roman numerals? Because the man who invented the procedure defined it that way. If you invent a new system, feel free to use whatever characters you desire. Meanwhile, it's probably best if we let Ansel's system remain the way he defined it.

Gosh I have a lot of hobbies but I don't think I've ever experienced any hobby where the other practitioners are so touchy! (except maybe for fly fishing)
So how many fights have I started on this forum now?

How's this for some more sacrilege and desecration of the "Catechism" of St. Ansel (or is the proper word the "Dogma" of St. Ansel?) --->

Each of zones shown on the stickers on your meter dials should really show a smooth transition of tones gradually going from lighter to darker gray, and not stark homogenous tones which change in "step" fashion as you move up or down the scale. That way you can more accurately "place" things into half and quarter zones. Its fine for initial teaching purposes to show each "step" as consisting of a uniform tone, but the tonal scale doesn't in fact consist of 9 or 11 or whatever distinct tones. So, for example, Zone 4 (note the Arabic numeral) should really be seen as starting from a particular shade of darker gray, gradually getting lighter, rather than all of zone 4 consisting of a single shade of gray.

After all, a zone actually corresponds to a particular range of tones and not a single shade of gray. The single shade of gray is just an "average" of the range of tones for that zone, which is convenient since it corresponds to an f/stop difference from the next zone.

Oh and to really tick people off -- I hear that some French photographers actually "invented" the Zone system. Go smoke that! HA! VIVE LA FRANCE

OK back to work...

[Jack Flesher]

It's actually quite simple -- He used ROMAN numerals to avoid confusion when making field notes, creating a built-in distintion between the Zones, EV's, shutter speeds longer than 1/2 second and wider apertures.