Hmm I got rid of an Ebony because I wanted an Arca Swiss. If I wanted another wood camera it would surely be an Ebony BUT only with a Maxwell screen.
Hmm I got rid of an Ebony because I wanted an Arca Swiss. If I wanted another wood camera it would surely be an Ebony BUT only with a Maxwell screen.
Interesting review. I've also been in a position to field test both Ebony and Shen Hao (5x4) cameras and my findings have been somewhat different to Jack's. Although I was initially impressed by the "out-of-the-box" Shen Hao, after a day or two of use it already showed signs of "poor" quality - paint flaking off metal parts and movements becoming wobbly. However, I didn't really expect anything else considering its price. But the same "issues" can't be said of the Ebony cameras I've used. They still look and function as they did the day they left the packaging. They've been used in all types of weathers here in the UK and they still function 100% perfectly.
The Shen Hao gave the distinct impression that it wouldn't last long.
Ebony cameras are expensive BUT they do last - mine will outlive me I'm sure!
I agree with Jack on one point though - if you want a disposable 5x4 get a Shen Hao, BUT if you want a quality LF camera then the choice is an Ebony.
I've not used the Shen Hao or any other wooden 4x5 for that matter, but a friend and I did a shoot together right after he bought his Shen Hao about 6 months ago (he needed a primer). I used my Toyo AII, and was frankly shocked at what a pice of crap the Shen Hao appeared to be, as COMPARED to the metal Toyo. When everything was locked down the She Hao worked just fine. But unlock anything and it was wobble, wobble, wobble. I trust this is not the case for all wood 4x5's.
I think it would be unreasonable to expect any wood camera to be as sturdy as a metal camera. I had a TOYO metal bodied field camera in the past, and I now have a Shen-Hao (since January 2006). I don't do wilderness trekking, unless you consider the urban environment of the city a wilderness.
I do quite a bit of night imaging, usually two to four minute exposures. In many cities with tall building, there are wind corridors made worse by the proximatey of buildings to each other. When I go along the coast near tall buildings, the wind can be even worse. Under these conditions, I don't have problems with camera shake, nor movement of front and rear standards.
I am not using super heavy lenses, nor much heavier than a Polaroid 405 back (mostly metal). I have yet to have any slippage, nor any blurriness evident in my long night exposures using a Shen-Hao. If the various knobs are not locked down, sure it will move around; so I don't do shots with the knobs unlocked.
The numerous reports I read about people getting good results with a Shen-Hao, and then reports of problems (even at SHUG), indicate to me that some quality control issues may be affecting quality. My own Shen-Hao was not perfect when I got it. I had to add some lube to the geared focus track, and a few other controls, then work all controls through their movements through full range a motion . . . then everything worked smoothly. I now consider the lubing issue a yearly maintenance procedure. I would not expect to need to do any of that when purchasing an Ebony. Interestingly I could have purchased four or five Shen-Hao cameras for the price of an Ebony, then tested and selected the best one (based upon quality control, or lack of quality control) and sold off the rest.
I might buy an Ebony at some point, but the Shen-Hao I have now allows me to generate images that impress others. Simply the size and look of the camera are enough to attract people not into large format. If I wanted to impress other large format photographers, I should be using a Linhof, Ebony, or maybe some other high end camera. Unfortunately, I have this backwards way of thinking that drives me to pick lenses I want to use, backs and film systems (Readyload/Quickload), the movements I need to do my shots, and generates the results I want to achieve. The Shen-Hao does that for me, even though it needed some tuning and was not perfect out of the box.
So this is not an endorsement of a Shen-Hao over an Ebony, since I still would expect the Ebony to be better, and that neither is a metal bodied camera. Anyone considering buying a Shen-Hao should keep in mind that it probably will not be perfect when it arrives. Indeed they might be crap, but you cannot see that in the resulting images.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
A G Studio
"I used my Toyo AII, and was frankly shocked at what a pice (sic) of crap the Shen Hao appeared to be, as COMPARED to the metal Toyo."
"Indeed they might be crap, but you cannot see that in the resulting images."
I personally am getting really sick and tired of all the Shen-Hao bashing that goes on on this forum. It's almost like you guys take pleasure at insulting these cameras. I have the Shen-Hao 4X5, and have compared it next to several other wood field cameras costing 3 or 4 times as much, and personally feel that the craftsmanship and rigidity of the Shen beats the other cameras. I won't mention any names, but these are cameras that are regularly cannonized (no pun intended) by forum participants. I suppose it's possible that I just got lucky, but it seems like most of us who actually own and use a Shen Hao have been very pleased with ours. How many of the nay-sayers actually have experience using a Shen-Hao?
Shen-Hao is the best thing to happen to LF photography in the last decade. Look at all the cameras they offer, at prices a fraction of competitors. (No, I am not affiliated with the company in any way other than owning one of their cameras). As far as I know, they are the only company to offer a 5X12. People who could only previously dream of shooting large format can now own a camera. A whole new group of photographers can access large format, which is a good thing for all of us. The more LFers there are, the longer they will make us film, and the more emulsions will be available. As far as the comparisons to Ebony, why would someone buy the Ebony when you can get a Shen and a set of 3 lenses for the same price? Is it just purely as a status symbol?
"If I wanted to impress other large format photographers, I should be using a Linhof, Ebony, or maybe some other high end camera."
Interesting comment there, Gordon. Why do you care what other LF photographers think of your camera?
Brian Vuillemenot
The argument for an Ebony is that their designer really developed a new and original camera. Sure it uses some traditional parts, but overall it is as distinct a new design as any other "great" camera, from the Sinar Norma, Phillips, or Arca to the Hasselblad and Rolleiflex to the Leica and Nikon F. It's in the same league...
The ShenHao is a fine camera but it is essentially a knock off of the Ebony.
Now I won't say that I never bought cheap Chinese/South Asia goods. But if I had the extra cash, I would gladly paid full price for the original in order to reward the talented designer.
Hello Brian Vuillemenot,
I suppose a downside of the internet and forums is that irony and sarcasm are lost in the typing. You quoted my statement, but I hope you realize that it was irony and sarcasm. Just to be absolutely clear I own a Shen-Hao HX45A-II and I am quite happy with it, to the point that I would buy another Shen-Hao. I am also one of the early members of the Yahoo Shen-Hao Users Group, or SHUG as known by participants there.
As for my other comment, again the irony and sarcasm seems to be lost in the message. I apologize that I cannot be in person to make those comments, since I would state the same thing, but maybe the actual irony and sarcasm would come through as exactly that. I could give a toss what other photographers think of my gear; all of it is tools that enable me to express my creative vision, and nothing more. If I was filthy rich, I would still probably buy the same gear I now use; in reality I am about as starving as most starving artists could be; meaning that I bought almost everything used. In fact, that Shen-Hao I got in January through Badger Graphics is the first new camera I have ever purchased.
So don't be mistaken by my comments. I have no intention of selling my Shen-Hao, and only wish I had more work that I could use it more often. I do own and use a Shen-Hao, and a glance through the many messages I have posted on SHUG would indicate my enthusiasm for these cameras.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com
I owned a Shen-Hao HX45A-II for a while sold it and bought a Toyo 45AII. It was a decent camera, it did what it was designed to do. There were several things I did not like about it, it did not lock down they way I liked, and the rear tilt was particularly annoying to me. But its not a bad camera. I am sure it will work well for years without any problems.
I have been lucky enough to met and spend sometime with the owner of Ebony and his family recently. A truely nice man who puts everything into his cameras. After playing with a couple of his cameras for several hours, there is no comparision. The Ebony is a much better camera made from nicer much material. Movements are silky smooth and it locks down tight. I am now trying to find a way to buy an Ebony 8x10, in a such a way as my wife does not kill me.
If you want a camera that will get the job down and serve you well for years at a decent price, get the Shen-Hao. If you want a truly fantastic camera that is beyond reproach, get the Ebony.
Hope it helps.
Gary
Brian I don't think anyone is knocking Shen Hao but simply stating facts/experiences and we all appreciate that Shen Hao are probably responsible for getting many people into LF due to the price of their cameras. However, I would (again) challenge anyone with a Shen Hao and an Ebony in front of them not to favour the Ebony - sure they cost x4 the price of the Shen Hao but many think the cost is woth it?
Finally as for an Ebony being a "status symbol" I need to disagree. Until last year when I arranged LF workshops here in the UK no one had ever seen my Ebony camera! LF is still a bit of a "novelty" compared to other formats and even when I set up to take a shot, if there are people around, they don't come rushing over crying "Oh my lawd, an Ebony". This applied to lectures at camera clubs, people would ask me what camera I use and a mention of "Ebony" drew blank/disinterested faces as no one had heard of them! EBONY ARE NOT LEICAS - most photographers have heard of "Leica" and IMHO these are "status symbols" because they are "known" - same goes for cars.
These postings "Brand X v Brand Y" are bound to generate feelings/emotions as people defend their choice of camera. But in the cold, hard world of shelling out cash for a camera do you honestly think people would buy an Ebony if they weren't worth buying? If people could get a Shen Hao "of Ebony quality" for a third of the price then Ebony would be out of business? As it is Ebony are working flat out to keep up with demand for their cameras (especially in the 10x8 format) so people are buying them for a reason?
I am guilty (in a previous posting on a similar subject) of describing Shen Hao 5x4 cameras as "crap" - but I made it clear that this was through personal experience and explained my reasons (the camera faults). But (thankfully) many of us live in societies where we can still speak freely and these statements are simply personal expression.
FINALLY! I've seen some fantastic images made with Shen Hao cameras. But I personally feel that using one doesn't instil confidence in the camera and I would rather be able to concentrate on the pictures I (try to make) rather than worrying about controls not being tight/movements being sloppy etc.
Still, let's all be happy - after all they are only cameras
Agree with you Frank, when weather is bad I use the Shen 4x5 rather my Ebony which stay in his box. So I'll never know what is the more solid out of the two cameras!
jcp
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