My first Lens. Symmar-S 6,8 /360 in a Copal 3 shutter. What next?

[Andy F]

I bought my first 8x10 lens. Well at least I think it did. Not exactly what I was looking for and could not find much info on it but the price was right and I needed to make a quick decision on it. it is a Symmar-S 6,8 /360 in a Copal 3 shutter that goes from f5.6 to f64. My guess is that I will need to relabel the F-Stops on the front because there is no way the numbers on the font correspond to the actual lens.

I have an old lens-board that came with the camera I have (Calumet c-1) but it does not say anything on it so I do not know if it is for a copal-3. Also between the first half of the lens and the back half of the lens there is a ring that is supposed to be used to help it mount to the lens board but not sure how that works.

Is this a good lens? What is the coverage (image circle)? Is it the same thing as the Schneider APO-Symmar360 which says the coverage is 491? Also, it is Heavy! My guess is it would not work with a Kodak Masterview, an Intrepid or any other field camera, correct?

I would love to hear what people think. Also, please don't crap on me. I got it cheap. I am not going to sell it. I would love to see if I can make it work.

[Mark J]

This is a beast !
For sure it's a good lens, the sharpness is close to the modern variants.
Was the shutter replaced at some stage ?
This brochure says 70° and 491mm image circle.
https://www.cameraeccentric.com/stat...chneider_5.pdf
This is odd because 70° should be more than 500mm.
I am thinking eslewhere that Symmar-S's have all been quoted at 72°, I need to check on that.
What format will you be using ? ( 8x10 " ? )

[David Lindquist]

I have an older information piece on the Symmar-S, a single sheet, date code 1/77. It also shows an angle of view of 70º at f/22 and an image circle of 491 mm. One thing is it gives the "Engraved" focal length as 360 mm but the "Effective focal length" is 350.5 mm +/- 1%.

Shows it was available in the Compur 3, The electric Compur 3, the Copal 3, or barrel mount. And there is the comment "also available with Multicoating"

David

[Conrad . Marvin]

If the ring on the back of the shutter is threaded on to the shutter, (are you ready?) and if your lens board has a hole in it the same size or just a little bit larger than the thread on the shutter, then you will be able to unscrew the back part of the lens, unscrew the ring, put the shutter through the hole, screw the ring onto the shutter which will hold it onto the board, and screw the back part of the lens onto the shutter and Bobs your uncle. BUT, if the ring is not threaded and is loose over the threads, it could have been used as a spacer and you will need to get a lens flange or a retaining ring for a Copal 3 shutter. Or if the hole in the lens board is smaller or larger than the threads on the back of the shutter, you will have to enlarge the hole or use a different board.

[Mark J]

... but the "Effective focal length" is 350.5 mm +/- 1%.

Ah, that explains it. The real focal length ( = EFL ) is 350.5. It's just 'called' a 360.

[Dan Fromm]

Ah, that explains it. The real focal length ( = EFL ) is 350.5. It's just 'called' a 360.

Mark, I'm sure that, given your profession, you know that every lens has three focal lengths.

There's the engraved/marketing focal length. There's the design focal length, i.e., of a lens made precisely to the prescription. All glasses with the prescription's optical characteristics, all curvatures, elements' thicknesses and inter-element spacing to the prescription. And then there's the actual focal length of the lens as built.

For example, the 38/4.5 Biogon's marketing focal length is 38 mm. The design focal length is 38.5 mm. Measured focal lengths of a sample of 20 38/4.5 Biogons for F.135 aerial cameras ranged from 38.3 mm to 38.8 mm. Re the sample, the data came from a group of 20 ex-RAF Biogons I bought from a surplus dealer. The F.135 is basically a 4x5 roll film box camera. Its lenses mount at a fixed distance from the film plane, no easy adjustment possible. Every one of the Biogons I bought (18 in cameras, 2 loose spares) was marked with measured focal length and flange-focal distance and had a shim, thickness marked to 0.01 mm, for positioning it in its infinity position.

[Andy F]

Mark, the goal is to use it for 8x10 film. My guess is that the shutter was replaced because the widest f-stop on the barrel ( 6,8 ) does not line up with the widest f-stop on the shutter. Everything else said so far is way over my head.

Conrad, the ring is loose because the guy selling it said that I would need "this ring" for the lens board and put it on that way. I did not ask what he meant.

[Andy F]

So what do we think the image circle is about? I assume it is ok for 8x10?

Also, what do we think about the mismatch between the fstops on the lens and the fstops on the shutter? Does it matter? I can just open it up all the way and count backward, correct?

[reddesert]

It sounds like you need to understand how to mount an LF lens to a lensboard. The lensboard needs to have a hole that accepts the mount diameter (outer thread) on the rear of the shutter, and then you use either a retaining ring or a flange to fasten the lens to the board. Frequently, especially with a big lens like this, you will need to unscrew the rear cell from the shutter, mount the shutter to the board, and remount the rear cell. None of that is difficult, but you really need all the right parts.

Do you have a book like the Steve Simmons "Using the View Camera" book? I strongly recommend trying to read some well organized introductory material. An 8x10 and a 360mm Symmar is kind of throwing yourself in at the deep end, or at least the big and heavy end.

If the lens was remounted in a different shutter, the aperture plate is likely to be somewhat incorrect. You can compute what the apertures are yourself, by looking at the lens from the front, measuring the apparent diameter of the aperture (with a ruler across the front of the lens), and using f-number = focal length / apparent diameter. Measure it at each setting and make a stick on label or something.

[Vaughan]

Given the lens isn't in the correct shutter I'd recommend returning for a refund and getting one that is in the right shutter and mounted on the right lens board. Futzing around getting apertures calibrated and stutters mounted onto boards will end up being more expensive than buying a lens that's complete and ready to go.

Additionally, Symmar-S lenses are single coated unless marked "Multicoating" on the barrel. I'm not suggesting that single-coated lenses are (significantly) inferior: I use many single-coated Fujinon lenses and am happy with them, but they are reasonably cheap. If spending top dollar on modern glass I'd be wanting multicoated.