Actual zone system

[monochromeFan]

Im watching a few folks on youtube to figure out the zone system, as its very hard to find anything on it in writing that doesnt have 30 pages of unneccessary data on film chemistry.

ive been trying to use way beyond monochrome as a guide but the section on the zone system is lacking something.. this the only ONLY part i can find that says how to correct the zone 3 area to BE a zone 3 density in final negative

But knowing that, in the subject, Zone V
is exactly two stops brighter than Zone III, a compensating exposure reduction of two stops is applied
to render the textured shadows as visualized.


then the book goes right into changing the time of film development to create a desired contrast. And this has me really confused as the book is not apparently written for a beginner.

I have been following a few dudes on youtube and one of them did a small break down on using the zone system and it doesnt make any sense.

on the youtube guy, he shows the zone system as being "find the area with shadow that you want to have detail in, take a meter reading on that, and then decide what shadow zone you want it to be. Because the camera is set as "middle grey, zone 5" if you want that spot to be a zone 4, you increase the shutter speed.

In his demonstration videos, he takes a meter reading on a shadow, the meter reads as say f/8 @ 1/15 he increases the shutter speed to 1/60. and then REDUCE development of the exposed film by 15% for each shutter speed movement.

The images he shows in negative scans and finalized prints are nice. but is this the REAL way its done?

[jim_jm]

I wouldn't use "Way Beyond Monochrome" if you're trying to understand the basics of exposure and the Zone System. Ansel Adams "The Negative" is a good place to start. David Vestal's books are also good.
Don't concern yourself with compensating development until later. It is a useful technique in many high and low contrast lighting situations, but focus first on getting a well-exposed negative.
There's plenty of You Tubers out there offering advice that may not be the best for you, or may not even be correct.
At it's most basic, Zone X is pure white and Zone 0 is pure black. A correctly calibrated exposure meter will meter a subject and place it on Zone V, which is halfway between the two extremes (an average gray tone). If you're taking a reading from the shadowed areas, then you do want those to be slightly underexposed on the negative. Hence the suggestion to reduce the exposure by 2 stops (smaller apertures or faster shutter speeds). Otherwise, your shadow areas will appear gray in the final print and your highlights will be blown out.

[Vaughan]

The original zone system was developed to map exposure values in the SUBJECT to reflective values in a PRINT by strictly controlling the density and contrast of the NEGATIVE. Hence the discussion about film chemistry and complexity.

If your final product is a digital image then 90% of the zone system is unnecessary: for negative film, spot meter an area in the subject you want to place on zone III (shadow with detail) and reduce the indicated exposure by 2 stops. Dig the highlights out in your digital post-processing and adjust tone curves to taste.

[joho]

The zone 18% grey, as in the gray card is the universal tone

The classical 18% grey card is the universal tone to use.
from this you can scale all the tones [render ] with more light or less light- the tone value needed.
Plus the developer times or solutions …..

joho

[Willie]

As has been said before: Remember that it is the Zone system, not the pinpoint system.

It gets you close and helps your controlling exposure(& development) for the images you want. Close - not engineering exact.

Shutters vary, light transmission through lenses vary, light meters vary, development can vary.

You use the system to help with exposure and development to get the best negative possible for your printing. Close..., not exact.

[Bob Kerner]

Humans like to over complicate stuff and the internet makes it easy for people to disseminate their personal interpretation of over complication. I think the Zone System has been overcomplicated right from the beginning. Your spot meter sees grey. When you point it at something it sees grey. It's up to you to decide whether that should be "whiter" or "blacker" and move the shutter/aperture accordingly. This is where the art comes in. You may want that shadow to be completely black, or the snow to be grey. It's up to you.

One thing to consider. You don't have to use a spot meter. If your scene is evenly illuminated you could use an incident meter and move on with your life. Plenty of people do this, even on Youtube. You'll read the following a lot here and it's true: The only way to figure it out is to go out with some film, the meter and a notebook. And also, it makes more sense once you PRINT your images. The Zone System really does make most sense when printing (versus scanning). If all you're going to do is scan, you might as well fix everything in Lightroom.

Compensating development for the Zone System doesn't make sense until you completely understand setting the exposure meter where you want it and how to develop normally, IMHO.

I read all of Ansel's books and, honestly, they didn't make sense to me until (a) I went out and practiced and (b) returning to LF after years of digital certain Youtube Channels have been helpful as a reminder, but others are trash (people might be smart but presentation skills suck; or they present well but are factually incorrect). Mat Marrash, Todd Korol and Kyle McDougall know what they are talking about and usually do a good job explaining it.

[djdister]

Another book to consider is "Zone VI Workshop" by Fred Picker. A bit simplified compared to the Ansel Adams books perhaps, but much more concise and a compact book. I've often found reading more than one author on a technical subject to be helpful.

[bmikiten]

Like anything else based in science (sensitometry in this case), things can be as complex or as simplistic as you'd like. The results will be a direct relationship with your understanding of the methods, materials and techniques. Understanding the basic concepts of where an image "lays" on the film curve will help you to understand what happens when an image is under or over exposed and what the toe or shoulder have to do with this. Many, many photographers simply suggest putting the open shadows on Zone IV and shooting. Modern films (TMX) and developers with long scales (D-76 1:1 and others) correct many of the film exposure errors. The issues comes to how you are going to print that image. If you are scanning, there is far more latitude. If you are using traditional printing methods, even the methods in Fred Picker's book (which I think grossly oversimplifies things) will get you started in making good prints. The trick will be understanding what happens when you see a very flat or very wide range (subject brightness range) image and knowing how to adjust film speed and development time. Start with easy to shoot scenes in morning light and use Adam's method of pre-visualization. Take lots of notes so you understand the effect of your changes in exposure and development.

[Tin Can]

There is theory and practice

Art will vary by purpose

Consider High Key

And…

[jnantz]

the problem with learning things from the internet is the inability to ask questions when things make no sense, and unfortunately you tube, tick tock LF.info, fo3PEE0 and other internet evangelists platforms sometimes don't explain or demonstrate reality ( online cooking videos are the same way ). they might skip important things or gloss over the main point as if it doesn't matter ( cause to them, it might not, they get it! ).
you might a buy a cheep 100 foot roll of bulk loading film (not expired cheep from eboink or given away from20 years ago, fresh film) roll 12 exposure short rolls... photograph a scene that is well lit with light, mid tones and shadows and bracket exposures by 1 stop each side of what your ambient light meter in your camera says the exposure is dont' bother with the spot metering .. you can leave the Fstop the same if you want and just change your shutter speeds, it's the same 1 stop difference cause they're all connected ( double the iso or half the iso is the same as changing 1 Fstop or 1 shutter speed ) .. anyways after you get a few rolls of the exact same scene/s with the exact same bracketing then you take a developer and you will develop each roll separately. don't bother with the crowdsourced massive development chart or esoteric developers like yack piss, rosemary and pine needles, use something like D76 or Sprint or ID11, something that has factory times and temperature (and use them) .. develop 1 roll with the factory recommended time for the film exposed normally, then 1 roll by increasing the development by 30% and 1 roll by decreasing development by 30%. be consistant, don't change how you agitate your film, the developer's temperature or do stand / semi stand developing nonsense just do 1 full minute agitating lazy 8s, then 10 seconds every minute after that, that will be the same, like with exposure you are just adjusting the time (spent in the developer). after you get all your rolls developed then you either scan and print them that way if that's your plan, or you make contact prints of each roll. you'll see the differences right away between exposure and development. if you are flush with cash you can do the same sort of thing with lots of sheets of fresh 4x5 film ( like uncle Ansel ), or you can use your dark slide to bracket your exposures on a single sheet of film, but that's kind a circus, roll film is pretty much the same thing (and cheaper), ( yeah, I know this is a LF site so do as you wish ) ... you'll see in some frames your whites are as white as the paper base and others your blacks are as black as ink and a bunch of midtones .. ... pick an exposure and development you like the best for your printing and then see how you like it with a roll un-bracketed.. then you can do the same sort tweaking after that to get your prints to look the way you want ... people like to evangelize their methods as if they are set in stone and it's the only things anyone should do, but the reality of it is none of it matters, cause you aren't them, your gear isn't the same, your eyes and brain don't see things the same, you don't agitate the film the same &c
good luck figuring it out

ps. some might say to learn this stuff using paper negatives or ortho film, I wouldn't recommend that mainly because that stuff is sensitive to blue light which changes throughout the day and changes because of atmospheric conditions and geographic location .. that said it was that type of "media" that the zone system was invented for, not panchromatic film ...