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Thread: The AI thread

  1. #611
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: The AI thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Kashi View Post
    Ai has been evolving since the first rules-based "expert" systems of the late 1960s and early 1970s, which evolved out of the original DARPA Project MAC and Marvin Minsky/Seymour Papert at MIT when I was there. It's nothing new, just becoming increasingly visible and mainstream lately.

    AI itself can be very useful in constrained situations where experts design and train systems for specific uses, such as medical diagnosis and reading medical imaging for subtle differentiation that initially escape a radiologist's review. These are very useful but they are different in kind from the sort of free-ranging generative AI that's being so highly touted now.

    I did a few experiments with supposedly AI-enhanced Google searches and some of the results make any mildly knowledgeable person laugh. For example, a search for the best normal lens for an 11x14 film negative came back with a recommendation for various 50mm lenses. Everyone on this forum knows, or should know, that can't possibly be accurate.

    Recently, a law firm was nationally embarrassed and fined by a federal court for submitting an AI-written brief without a lot of human review and care. Turns out that the AI could not find the "right" kind of precedental cases, so the generative AI just made up ( i.e., "generated") a bunch of faux court decisions with the names of real federal judges and all. The other side, not being idiots, checked that brief and quickly found that the citations to precedent were largely fictitious. The federal judge was "not amused" and, among other punishments, ordered the offenders to write letters of apology to every judge that they cited. These guys are now famous, but as objects of ridicule and as examples used in legal ethics training nationwide. That's not a good way in which to become famous.

    Now, this sort of error can be mostly caught and rectified with the right kind of programming and automatic "adversarial" systems before the generated product is displayed to the inquirer, but fictitious-precedent brief illustrates that generative AI cannot substitute for real knowledge of a particular subject matter. At this point, at least, it's at best a useful adjunct rather than something that will burn down society overnight.

    Certain kinds of professional photography will be essentially put out of business by this technology, but what's new about that? That's happened throughout the medium's history. Remember Kodak?

    Programs have now been developed that let a content provider, such as a photographer, go through their online postings with newly developed "AI-poisoning" applications to render their content unusable or even destructive to generative AI. That removes the copyright violation issue but it may well be counter-productive in the long run as it renders that person/organization's content invisible to AI searches and hence invisible to users over the long haul. Do you want your Flickr images to be unsearchable?

    Serious art photographers are probably less affected by AI than many others because AI isn't yet at the point of actual creativity. If your photos are truly your own artistic and emotional creation and not merely derivative of others (no more crowds in Iceland or Yosemite all photographing the same thing from the same vantage point at the same time, please ! ), then you'll likely remain differentiated from AI-generated images, which tend to just recursively reproduce and reinforce what's already online ad nauseum. AI is not at the point of generating something new, different, and emotionally resonant. Only you can do that.
    I was defendant in a case that I lost. Considering what I paid my lawyers, I would have been better served by AI.

  2. #612
    multiplex
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    Re: A.I. Is the Future of Photography. Does That Mean Photography Is Dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    Photography will still continue because ego demands people see pictures of themselves doing things. Look what I'm eating. Snap! Look at me in front of the Eiffel. Snap! Look at me in my new haircut. Snap.
    maybe im wrong but ai is probably already in every cell phone that's being used (auto correct/levels/auto contrast/convert to bw) to help people make better photographs. as Georgey said push the buttons and the we are doing the rest .. instead of you know, someone cranking a hurdy-gurdy and some chimp on a leash like us doing it by hand in a darkroom (or behind a camera).. I think Samuel Clemens would revise what he said generations ago to believe none of what you hear and none of what you see at this point.

  3. #613
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    Re: What's going to become of photography?

    That is one reason I distort and cut off corners on my posted pics
    Tin Can

  4. #614

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    Re: What's going to become of photography?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Can View Post
    That is one reason I distort and cut off corners on my posted pics
    What is that going to do? I think the machines are expecting that and they are ready. No escape. Duck and cover, and wait for the knock at the door.

  5. #615

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    Re: A.I. Is the Future of Photography. Does That Mean Photography Is Dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnantz View Post
    maybe im wrong but ai is probably already in every cell phone that's being used (auto correct/levels/auto contrast/convert to bw) to help people make better photographs. as Georgey said push the buttons and the we are doing the rest .. instead of you know, someone cranking a hurdy-gurdy and some chimp on a leash like us doing it by hand in a darkroom (or behind a camera).. I think Samuel Clemens would revise what he said generations ago to believe none of what you hear and none of what you see at this point.
    You're not wrong, John. AI is being incorporated into many of the technologies we use every day. In Lightroom, the new "repair" tools use AI to create context-appropriate texture to fill in a blemish in an image, and it's frighteningly good (most of the time). What troubles me is the more advanced features, like "Generative Expand" in Photoshop. I was unaware of this tool until a few days ago, and curiosity got the better of me, so I gave it a try. It is now possible to fake a scene with sufficient skill as to be 100% effective in deceiving the viewer. Here's one of the examples I generated:



    And here you can see the original image used to create it.

    For me, one of the questions I have to ask is: "At what point is one of these altered images no longer a Photograph?" I'm not sure there's a single, all-encompassing answer to that question.

  6. #616
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    Re: A.I. Is the Future of Photography. Does That Mean Photography Is Dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbarden View Post
    You're not wrong, John. AI is being incorporated into many of the technologies we use every day. In Lightroom, the new "repair" tools use AI to create context-appropriate texture to fill in a blemish in an image, and it's frighteningly good (most of the time). What troubles me is the more advanced features, like "Generative Expand" in Photoshop. I was unaware of this tool until a few days ago, and curiosity got the better of me, so I gave it a try. It is now possible to fake a scene with sufficient skill as to be 100% effective in deceiving the viewer. Here's one of the examples I generated:



    And here you can see the original image used to create it.

    For me, one of the questions I have to ask is: "At what point is one of these altered images no longer a Photograph?" I'm not sure there's a single, all-encompassing answer to that question.
    I don't think there's an answer either .. we're living in strange times .. getting stranger by the moment. thankfully I've given up and am trying in some respects to be selfish as hell, and don't really care anymore. as Magritte said the pipe is not a pipe and all that ... this photograph is not a photograph too ... ( even though the people and bots squirting them out say differently ) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  7. #617
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    Re: What's going to become of photography?

    We are obsolete

    Perhaps not GOOD for Soylent Green either

    Too much plastic inside

    I will live until I die

    do not return to sender
    Tin Can

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    Re: The AI thread

    I've been thinking about the impact of AI quite a bit, and I keep coming back to the question of what it is that we individually enjoy about photography. If we see photography as merely a method to produce images, we have already been pretty much replaced by AI. I would argue that just about any image we imagine, whether it be "straight" photo-like images, or more imaginative creations along the lines of what Jerry Uelsmann used to produce, can already be done, possibly better, in AI. Ansel Adams would "lose" in competition with AI in the creation dramatic landscapes. BUT ... I think part of what many of us enjoy about photography, especially large format photography, is the process. We enjoy working within the constraints of compositional "tricks" such as swing, tilt, or selective focus, and we enjoy darkroom printing even if many Photoshop effects are more difficult, or almost impossible, to achieve in the darkroom. For example, I enjoy the fact that none of my handmade darkroom prints of the same image are identical, because my burning or dodging movements will be slightly different each time, no matter how much I try to keep them the same. So if we only care about the end result, the image, we have lost to AI, but if we enjoy the "journey," the process of making the image, photography will endure.

  9. #619
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    Re: The AI thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Lewin View Post
    I've been thinking about the impact of AI quite a bit, and I keep coming back to the question of what it is that we individually enjoy about photography. If we see photography as merely a method to produce images, we have already been pretty much replaced by AI. I would argue that just about any image we imagine, whether it be "straight" photo-like images, or more imaginative creations along the lines of what Jerry Uelsmann used to produce, can already be done, possibly better, in AI. Ansel Adams would "lose" in competition with AI in the creation dramatic landscapes. BUT ... I think part of what many of us enjoy about photography, especially large format photography, is the process. We enjoy working within the constraints of compositional "tricks" such as swing, tilt, or selective focus, and we enjoy darkroom printing even if many Photoshop effects are more difficult, or almost impossible, to achieve in the darkroom. For example, I enjoy the fact that none of my handmade darkroom prints of the same image are identical, because my burning or dodging movements will be slightly different each time, no matter how much I try to keep them the same. So if we only care about the end result, the image, we have lost to AI, but if we enjoy the "journey," the process of making the image, photography will endure.
    Hi Peter. Just getting out in the fresh air and shooting nature as it is, is a delightful part of photography, especially if you're an amateur.

  10. #620
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    Re: A.I. Is the Future of Photography. Does That Mean Photography Is Dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnantz View Post
    ...Magritte said the pipe is not a pipe...
    Please do not misquote Magritte. His painting of a pipe is not a pipe.

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