Arca Swiss F line Metric 4x5"

[Fermat]

Thanks a lot for the helpful and detailed advice and comments.
I am dealing for a pre-owned F-line Metric Classic in Europe and this is the chance I have now since I'm not planning to buy a new one.

More or less quite flexible configuration for transportability, landscape and architecture.

Inviato dal mio M2101K6G utilizzando Tapatalk

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello from Besançon, France !

Some additional information regarding weights of 6x9cm and 4x5" Arca Swiss F-classic and F-metric cameras.

About weights:
Some information can be found here in the forum's archives about the 110-141 configuration
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...862#post209862

Kerry Thalmann had posted (in 2004, hence just when the 141-line of products was introduced) a very detailed weight budget for Arca Swiss "171" monorail cameras.

In 2011 I had posted some information on weights here
https://www.largeformatphotography.i...l=1#post804639

I'm re-posting the information here with some updated details.


Selected weights for different parts

110 F-classic format frame including manual Orbix: 340 g

141 F-classic rear frame with 141-to-graflok plate, without ground glass: 330 g

F-metric 141 format frames are about the same weight as F-classic (F-metric frames are slightly lighter, since there is only one knob instead of 2!)

The 110-141 universal molded leather bellows (I use it with a 45mm apo grandagon on a recessed 110 board, maximum bellows draw about 270 mm): 200 g

I have no idea of the weight of the standard synthetic bellows 141-141, probably about the same weight as the 110-141 standard leather bellows i.e*; about 200 grams?

141 ground glass plus springback: 370 g
---

6x9 F-metric

Arca Swiss F-metric compact 6x9-6x9, 300 mm (12") folding rail, optional manuel Orbix® in front. Current model has undergone very little change since 2004.

Front "metric" format frame including 6x9 Orbix®: 340 g
Rear "metric" format frame: 281 g
(Additional weight of the 6x9 Orbix®: 60 g)
Standard 75-150 6x9-6x9 bellows, 110x110 frames: 95 g

6x9 ground glass & Fresnel lens: 150 g

300 mm (12") Folding Rail type II: 314 g
Connecting bracket to quick release clamp, 8.5 cm type II: 123 g

Functions carrier "metric" w. geared self-locking shift, front: 583 g
Functions carrier "metric" w. geared self-locking shift, rear: 603 g

Additional compendium rod holder: 27 g

Typical lens mounted on a 110 board ; 400-600 grams, heavier for telephotos of course.


Total weight of the 6x9 metric: about 2.5 kg / 5.5 pounds, slightly more than the misura w/o leather case but with base-plate. A 4x5" F-metric in 141 is only slightly heavier than a 6x9 f-metric.

Clearly, metric functions carriers add bout 100 grams each (200 g for 2x) w/respect to classic non-geared models.

Other Comments.

The 6x9 Orbix mechanisms adds only 60 g to the weight and virtually nothing to the height of the frame. Truly amazing. The 4"x5" model is probably bigger in size, I do not know, but not that much in weight.

The rear metric functions carrier has an additional overhanging platform to shorten the length between both standards.

The 8.5 cm connecting bracket @123 g represents 30% of the weight of the 30cm rail+bracket assembly. However new Arca Swiss clamping devices with dual dovetail width can directly attach the folding rail or an upper rail element without need of the intermediate 8.5cm bracket, which is in fact a short piece of the lower element of a telescopic rail.

A complete catalog of Arca Swiss products (in English), as of the 1990's, can be found here.
https://www.arca-swiss-magasin.com/contents/fr/arca.pdf

141 mm elements are not listed in this catalog, but the catalog helps understanding how the elements are combined to build a camera. There is no functionnal difference between 141 and 171 elements, except of course the size of lens boards and bellows attachment frames.
The 4x5" binocular reflex viewer did not change between 171 and 141 models, same device, same attachment system around the ground glass.

I'm using a 141 to 110 reduction adapter plate so that I can use small rollfilm backs in baby-graflok size (2x3" - 6x9cm) e.g. Horseman (sold by Arca Swiss in the past), Mamiya RB, probably some Graflex 2x3" rollfilm holders.
The same 141 to 110 reduction plate is useful in front if you want to mount your lenses on 110 mm Arca Swiss lens boards, for use on a 141mm cameras for 4x5", 5x7" and 8x10".
110 mm boards is my standard configuration since I also often use the 6x9cm 110-110 configuration.

3-rd party 141 mm adapter plates exist, allowing to mount Linhof Technika 96x99mm boards.

------------------------------------------------------------

Some information about the company Arca Swiss International itself.

The company is located near Besançon (France) and you can easily visit them, just place a phone call for an appointment. I was there very recently, end of July 2021, but I live only 15 minutes drive from Arca Swiss

postal address
ARCA SWISS International
espace Valentin - quartier de l'Europe
29 rue de Châtillon
25048 BESANÇON cedex
France

phone +33 381 854 060

The place is actually named École-Valentin, two villages (merged into a single municipality), close to Besançon.
From Milano to École-Valentin by car the nicest route goes through Switzerland, via Aosta, Grand Saint Bernard tunnel (or pass, open in summer only), Martigny, Lausanne, Pontarlier, Besançon. Allow about 6:30 driving time.

It is also very easy to go there by train. Arca Swiss is located 10 minutes walk from a small train station named "École-Valentin". A shuttle train connects the station "École-Valentin" to the main high speed train station "Besançon-Franche-Comté-TGV".
From Milano Centrale to École-Valentin, travel time by train via Lugano, Basel and Mulhouse is about 7h00.
From Paris to École-Valentin travel time by train is about 2h30 so people living in Paris or visiting Paris can easily make the return travel to Arca Swiss within one day.

I'm not sure if somebody speaks Italian at Arca Swiss, but the nice lady who will welcome you on the phone speaks fluently English, French and German.


Mario and of course all forum friends can also send me a message through the forum's messenging system, I'll be very happy to exchange with them on the subject!

[r.e.]

With regard to the conversion kits (5x7 & 8x10), they are expensive. You could likely get a dedicated 8x10 for the same money. Converting the camera, especially in the field is a nuisance IMO. I personally would focus on setting up your ideal 4x5 and wait on worrying about the larger formats until you’re ready to think about it. It’s a lot of effort to put together the perfect camera system from 45 to 810. And your needs may change in the future.

The above summarises a view that @agregov set out in more detail in a post last February: Arca-Swiss f classic - query about format conversion

I have a different view. I see my Arca-Swiss components as a LEGO set rather than as 4x5 and 8x10 cameras. Depending on what I'm doing, I might use my 500mm telescoping rail and long bellows with either my 4x5 or 8x10 rear standard. That's how I'm able to use my Fujinon C 600mm lens, and Nikkor 210mm AM ED macro lens well beyond 1:1, to shoot 4x5 as well as 8x10.

I started with an Arca-Swiss Discovery. It wasn't "a lot of effort" to expand from there. I just acquired additional components when the opportunity arose. This was also more within my means than buying a new conversion kit or 8x10 camera.

I decide whether I'm going to configure the camera for 4x5 or 8x10 sheets of film before I go out to shoot. This has never taken more than about ten minutes at a leisurely pace. I don't bring along the whole LEGO set, plus loaded film holders for both 4x5 and 8x10, and start reconfiguring the camera on a New York City street or in a field somewhere. I wouldn't cart around separate 4x5 and 8x10 cameras either. If some people do that, more power to them, but to me the idea has zero attraction. Calling it a "nuisance" is an understatement I see format decisions, and indeed lens decisions, as a matter of scouting and pre-planning. From my point of view, the less gear that I bring with me to make the photographs, the better.

[r.e.]

First, thanks to Emannuel Bigler for consolidating, and updating, a lot of information about Arca-Swiss cameras.

One reason that Emmanuel's post is so useful is that it brings clarity to a superficially complex system of permutations and combinations. I took a few iPhone snaps this afternoon, and in this and the next post I want to show the Arca-Swiss system at its simplest and least expensive.

Earlier, I said that I started with an Arca-Swiss Discovery. That was the camera that Arca-Swiss marketed, at a very attractive price, to students in photography and fine art programmes. With one exception, the first photo below shows my camera configured as a Discovery.

The exception shows a simple example of Arca-Swiss modularity. The screen capture below, which is from the Arca-Swiss catalogue that Emmanuel linked, shows the "Basic" function carrier and the "F-Classic" function carrier. The Discovery came with the Basic carrier. In the photo, I've changed out the Basic carrier for the Classic carrier. The screen capture explains the similarities and differences between these carriers. The basic difference is that the Basic carrier works by friction, and the Classic carrier is geared. Note that one could use a combination of one Basic carrier and one Classic carrier. In any event, the Basic carrier is lighter, and works fine unless one needs geared adjustments in bellows length. It got a lot of people through photography and art school.

In the photo of the camera, the lens is a Nikkor-W f/5.6 240mm. This lens covers both 4x5 and 8x10. That means that I can use it with my Arca-Swiss components set up for either format. Other lenses that I have, and can use, for both configurations are a Nikkor 210mm AM ED macro, a Nikkor-W 360mm and a Fujinon C 600mm.

In case anyone is wondering about the tripod head in these photos... For still photography, I normally use a Gitzo levelling base or, if I need fine adjustments, a Manfrotto Pan and Tilt Geared Head. I haven't used a ball head in years. I also have a Miller CX6 fluid head that I use with a Blackmagic cinema camera. The Miller is what's in these photos. I'm trying it out with the Arca-Swiss, and I love the combination. I also have a Ries wooden tripod and head, but it's currently 2900km (1800mi) away.

Arca-Swiss Discovery




Arca-Swiss Basic and F-Classic Function Carriers

[r.e.]

Further to the post above...

These photos show the Discovery from the rear and from the side.

The rail is 300mm long. As Emmanuel notes, the rail is mounted on what is a short length of Arca-Swiss's telescopic rail bed. The bed locks to the rail with a lever (see the photos), and has a 3/8" female receiver on the bottom. In the photos, the bed is screwed onto a plate for my Miller CX6 fluid head.

As an option for the Discovery, Arca-Swiss resellers proposed a 150mm (6") rail, which could be purchased separately, as part of a telescoping rail or as part of a "C" (for Compact) folding rail. I've never felt the need for this option, despite travelling with this camera on two continents and through several countries. If you look at the photos, I like to carry the camera with my hand, upside-down from the centre of the rail. For packing, I can move the front and rear standards so that they are right beside each other, or just take the standards off the rail. That's compact enough for me.

The Discovery has 171mm standards/lens boards, predating the change to 141mm. As a practical matter, 30mm makes no difference to me. As others have explained in posts #8 and #9, some people prefer 171mm. Note that the Discovery came with a recessed lens board (see the photo in the post above). Arca-Swiss regards recessed boards, rather than flat boards, as the "standard" board for its cameras. My understanding is that this has to do with the operation of Orbix, which is a component that I haven't purchased.

Arca-Swiss Discovery, Rear View




Arca-Swiss Discovery, Side View

[6x6TLL]

I have an F-metric field which has the 110mm front standard and 141mm rear, geared rise/fall and shift. Very compact and handy, I carry it in a largish LowePro shoulder bag with a few lenses and film holders.

The rail is about 30cm assembled and folds in half in the middle for easy packing, meaning the camera sits on one 15cm length. I also have an extra 25cm rail and extra long tapered bellows when needed, more than enough for very long lenses or long bellows extension.

I was thinking at some point to maybe get the 8x10 conversion set and have seen a few used for sale, but since I ended up with the F-field, would need a new front standard as well as rear, since mine is 110mm and the 5x7 and 8x10 models are all 141mm front standards. My current front standard has Orbix which is really nice in use, very quick to get everything in focus near to far.

I agree with R.e. in that I generally visit a site and make a plan for what I want to shoot, use a viewing frame to select focal lengths and locations, then pack the gear I need in a bag and head out. Did that recently mid day when the light wasn't optimal for shooting, then went back and visited with the camera in the late afternoon or early morning. The less I have to carry, the better!

Like R.e. I keep an eye on auction sites, photo sites and elsewhere and when I see something I can use at a decent price, add it to my "Lego" set of Arca gear. It's minimal, but covers what I need for what I currently shoot, and can grow with me as I want to do more. I think the only other camera system like it is probably the Sinar, which is also modular, but seems a bit bulkier and heavier overall.

If I were certain when I first got the camera that I would be shooting 8x10, I would have probably gotten the 141 front standard version, also with Orbix, so that the transition would have been a bit easier, even though the 110mm front standard is smaller and lighter, making for easier carrying (and should take Copal #3 shuttered lenses, at least I've been told it will).

Hope this helps!

[Fermat]

Thank you.
Very helpful.
Since I am not sure I want to exclude definitely the 8x10 format I had better to go for 141mm front.
At the same time the field version is an excellent configuration.


Mario

[Fermat]

Hi all
Many months passed since I wrote last time and many things happened.

First of all my interest in 8x10 is over.
I will stay in 4x5"
Since the trasportability is a strong requirement I think my best choise is
The AS Fline Field C 4x5" with the Orbix.

Now I need to raise funds.

Just a question. What's max focal length can be used on the standard version?

Thanks
Mario

Mario

[Mark Darragh]

Hello Mario,
I’ve found the usable range with the current 110-141 standard leather bellows on the Field from 47-300 lenses.

All the best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fermat]

Hello Mario,
I’ve found the usable range with the current 110-141 standard leather bellows on the Field from 47-300 lenses.

All the best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a great news.
Do you use a foldable rail (C)?
Thanks

Mario