Choice of 180mm for 8x10

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Herb,

As others have mentioned, there aren't a lot of options in a 180mm wide angle for 8x10. This has always struck me as odd given the popularity, and large number of options, of the 90mm wide angle on 4x5.

Your choices in modern lenses are either shorter (and huge) or longer (and huger). In the older lenses many have tight coverage and/or very slow maximum apertures. I keep hoping that Cooke will introduce an updated version (multicoated, Copal shutter) of their Series VIIb f6.5 Wide Angle Anastigmat series. The old 158mm Series VIIb is one of the best of the older wide angles, but it's hard to find and originally came only in a barrel mount (although I have seen a couple remounted into shutters).

Too bad there was never a 180mm version of the f9 Computar. I use a 150mm f9 Graphic-Kowa as my wide angle of choice on the 4x10 format, but it won't cover 8x10.

Kerry

[tim atherton]

"Too bad there was never a 180mm version of the f9 Computar. I use a 150mm f9 Graphic-Kowa as my wide angle of choice on the 4x10 format, but it won't cover 8x10. "

did you ever try to mix and match the 150mm and 210mm elements...?

There is always the mythical 180mm f9 Carl Zeiss Dagor

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

did you ever try to mix and match the 150mm and 210mm elements...?

Tim,

Not yet. I just recently obtained a 210mm f9 Computar. Prior to that, my only 210mm of this ilk was a Graphic-Kowa. As I posted in The Computar lens and ULF coverage thread, the construction of the 210mm of Computar (6/4) is definitely different than the 210mm f9 Graphic-Kowa (6/6). So, I don't think mixing and matching cells with a 210mm (6/6) and 150mm (6/4) Graphic Kowas would work too well. Now that I have f9 Computars in both 150mm (6/4) and 210mm (6/4), I'll have to give it a try.

I'll probably try both permutations, but does anyone have any predictions which combination (210 front + 150 rear, or 150mm front + 210mm rear) will yield the better results?

Kerry

[Andrew_3677]

I have the 180mm f6.8 Carl Zeiss Dagor...i got it thinking it would cover 8x10 but it doesnt by quite a bit unfortunately...still looking for the mythical f9 version.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I have the 180mm f6.8 Carl Zeiss Dagor...i got it thinking it would cover 8x10 but it doesnt by quite a bit unfortunately...still looking for the mythical f9 version.

I don't have the lens coss-section in front of me, but I seem to recall the f9 Zeiss-Dagor isn't really a Dagor. I believe it is actually an updated version of the Zeiss Series III Protar. I used to have a little 12.5cm f9 Zeiss Dagor that was a great lens. My sample had been retro-coated and installed in a Copal No. 0 shutter. It didn't quite cover 8x10, but covered 5x7 with room to spare.

Kerry

[tim atherton]

If I recall correctly, there was a Carl Zeiss Jena Dagor 180mm f9 and a Carl Zeiss Jena Protar 180mm f18

Again, from memory, the one version of the former I have seen said "Goerz Dagor,
Carl Zeiss Jena" on it and was mounted (possibly remounted) in a Compur

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

If I recall correctly, there was a Carl Zeiss Jena Dagor 180mm f9 and a Carl Zeiss Jena Protar 180mm f18

Tim,

The f18 version was a Series V Protar. Zeiss made three different wide angle version of the Protar, the f9 Series IIIa, the f12.5 Series IV and the f18 Series V. I don't recall the exact maximum coverage of the Series III and IV, but I believe it was about 97 degrees at "small stops"for the Series and I think 100 degrees at "small stops" for the Series IV. I don't remember exactly what they considered "small stops", but I think it might have been f45 or smaller. The only Series IV Protars I recall seeing have been longer lenses. I know there was one in the 390mm range that covered 12x15 wide open. I seem to also recall there was an f9 Series IIa Protar in the 196mm range that didn't quite cover 11x14. It would offer very generous movements on 8x10. All the Series IIIa and IV Protars I have seen were barrel mounted, uncoated pre-WWII samples. Baush&Lomb continued to offer a couple focal lengths (113mm and 183mm that I know of) after WWII. These were single coated and came in shutters (Compur 0 for the 113mm and Supermatic for the 183mm).

Most of the f9 Zeiss Dagors I've seen over the years (7.5cm, 10cm, 12.5cm, 15cm and 18cm) came in Compur shutters.

Kerry

[tim atherton]

Kerry,

I'm not someone who usually keeps notes on all the lens history stuff... so take this with a pinch of salt.

I seem to remeber an article on Zeiss lenses that said somethignlike after Zeiss bought C.P. Goerz in the 1920's (1926?) they used some of the Dagor designs to replace a number of their existing lens lines, one of these became the f9 Zeiss Dagor a 100 degree coverage lens that replaced the Protar III's in the catalogue

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I seem to remeber an article on Zeiss lenses that said somethignlike after Zeiss bought C.P. Goerz in the 1920's (1926?) they used some of the Dagor designs to replace a number of their existing lens lines, one of these became the f9 Zeiss Dagor a 100 degree coverage lens that replaced the Protar III's in the catalogue

Yes, the German Goerz was absorbed into the huge Zeiss-Ikon conglomerate in 1926. However, I don't believe Goerz had any f9 wide angle designs. As part of that deal, Zeiss not only bought the rights to the Goerz designs, but also their trade names (including Goerz and Dagor). What I believe happened (and I could be wrong) is that they used the Dagor name on an updated version of their Series IIIa Protar. Perhaps they thought the Dagor name had more prestige than their own Protar trade name. One easy way to settle this would be to look at the lens cross section diagrams. Unfortunately, I don't have those for the f9 Zeiss Dagors.

Of course, prior to this the American divsion of Goerz had split off and become a separate company (C.P. Goerz American Optical). They would later develop their own f8 Wide Angle Dagor - a different design than the f9 Zeiss Dagors.

Kerry

[Dan Fromm]

To add to the confusion, the Vade Mecum, which isn't always right or even clear, says:

"Wide Angle Dagor f9.0 150mm,etc.

This is the Goerz lens in a new label. By this period the covering power of the Dagor was still valuable and it was mostly this slower, wider version that was sold, leaving the Protar to supply the declining market for symmetrical anastigmats. They are engraved only Goerz- Dagor or Dagor and were seen at No2,214,78x (1936) and No2,802,51x (about 1942), the latter being one of a stereo pair of Zeiss Dagors. (They were known as stereo aerial survey lenses). It seems that the external curves of the Dagor and wide angle version are much the same but the wide angle has bigger external glasses even though slower, and smaller internal ones to fit it for wider angle use. Sales included the Kodak wide-angle camera, with Dagor f9/100mm being used for 1/2plate at No2,062,89x."

Muddle on thr0ugh,