Which 210mm F5.6 for portraits?

[Vaughn]

Another country heard from...lol!

How about the Computar Symmetrigon 210/6.3?

"The Computar Symmetrigons were made by Kowa and are a Gauss design,
...They have low-dispersion glass and are in Copal-1 shutters."

My first lens for the 4x5, later used on the 5x7. I never did portraits with it, just landscapes with everything in focus and sharp. A different kind of beasty, 4 air-spaced cells...I have no idea how it would act as a heads and shoulders type of image. Closest thing I've done is something like these (lens on 5x7).

[Drew Wiley]

Did anyone point out that Caltar lenses were simply one of the usual suspects private-labeled for Calumet? - Most often Sironar N or Symmar S, but they
also had Commercial Ektars private label too, and a few other things early on.

[hoffy]

WOW! I go to bed and get two pages of replies. Thanks folks!

Hoffy,

What specifically do you mean by "more modern"? Are you looking for a plasmat? There are any number of lenses in the 210mm neighborhood which would be wonderful for portraiture on 4x5, but they tend to be a bit older.

OK, by more modern, I basically want to exclude "character" lenses for now. I also want the ability to use more modern shutters, with electronic flash sync and so-on. As you can see by my kit in the cupboard, there is a couple of character lenses in my arsenal, but I what to start with the basics. I feel that this would be best achieved with a lens that does most things well and is not limited by a small level of sharpness in the centre!

I have to admit, I am a bit clueless when it comes to design. There are certainly a lot of different designs thrown around, but I am unsure what is useful for which purpose! The other thing - I am not a landscape photographer. I do take a lot of pictures of cars and occasional pictures of buildings and ruins, but landscapes fall low on my list.

On 5x4, 210mm f5.6 preference could be due to commonality rather than preference as the 210mm f5.6 has become one of the most common and generic offering used on 5x4 for most image making.

Generally speaking 210mm f5.6 Plasmats share a common image result. While there are some differences, they are not as great as perceived. These differences are often a different set of trade offs rather than inherent design in image result differences. Know the modern f5.6 Plasmat is often optimized for images to be made at f22, the f5.6 is intended to be used for focusing. More often than not, the modern Plasmat at f5.6 produces harsh out of focus rendition, this coupled with a limited umber of aperture blades of the modern Copal shutter adds to the out of focus harshness. Once stopped down to f22, these issues often goes away. The design intent of these modern Plasmats are to render "everything in focus" as a result and not really intended render out of focus area with smooth roundness. Then again, this could be the out of focus effect the image maker is seeking.


Better question would be what the resulting portrait image wants to be? Answer this, then seek the optic to meet this goal.


Bernice

OK, good response. My personal brief is to take "honest and respectful portraits of normal people". Pretty broad and wide, hey! I have this idea that I want to shoot adults of all age ranges, male and female, but not necessarily hiding all their imperfections.

As per my examples on page one, thus far any work has been pretty bog standard - camera in front, non nondescript background, sharpness from eye to ear. I'd like to start exploring different angles and so on, shooting near wide open, so having pleasing Out of Focus areas and smooth focus transitions is where I would like to head.

Ironically, the Rodenstock 210mm f/6.8 Geronar (aka Caltar II-E) that the OP already has is my very most favorite lens for people portraits on 4x5. The 210mm f/6.1 Schneider Xenar is another favorite. The 210mm f/5.6 Plamats (Sironar and Symmar in all their various iterations) are fantastic optics...I have a couple but for portraits, my favorite of these is the slightly older 210mm f/5.6 Schneider Symmar convertible.

Good to know! I have to be honest, I haven't explored the lenses full capabilities. The lens only came part of a kit, so it was (& still is) my starter lens.

for portraits? no 5.6 lens.. instead get a 210 f4.5 Heliar in shutter and don't look back

I'll add it to the list! Not sure how expensive this will be & how hard it will be to find!

I'm going to agree with Bernice, by and large-- you're likely to get similar results from most modern plasmat designs, and other factors are likely to be a bigger influence on your final image. Since you're investigating studio lighting right now, you have a lot of control in particular over the contrast range of your images, which is one of the major things that lenses handle differently.

If you'd like to mix it up a bit with the optics, before switching lenses, I might recommend trying some filters. You can combine one with your existing lens to get a "vintage" look, or just to soften contrast while keeping a clean, sharp look. For the latter, there is a newer generation of diffusion filters designed to "take the edge off" digital sensors for portraiture or video work. I haven't used them on large format (I use the Fuji 210 f5.6 and 250 f.6.7, btw) but, on a digital camera, I like the effect of the weaker grade Black Satin or Hollywood Black Magic filters--softens skin texture a bit without imparting an old-fashioned "vaseline on the lens" look. Even a Black Pro-Mist 1/4 filter has a little too much of that quality for me, but it's a classic that you might like to try. Other filters of this type will give you glowy highlights (think 1930s-40s Hollywood glamour). Because they're often used for video work, you can find a lot of videos comparing the effects of different filters. (Here are a couple:
vimeo.com/162283600 & vimeo.com/92660033) Some of these may be available to try at photo or film rental houses.

And all that said, if you like the look of a tessar but need a modern shutter for your flash system, you can find information here about modern tessars produced by the big manufacturers, usually as part of a lower cost line to parallel their flagship plasmat designs.

I'll keep filters in mind! I have played around with Green and red filters thus far - green worked well ("Dave" on page one was shot with a green filter), but red overdid the image of the lady I was photographing......

I think someone did suggest a modern tessar (fujinon? See, totally clueless) to me once.

Thank you all for your replies. I am learning something! I just hope, like a lot of my film projects, that I don't get sidetracked and this gets forgotten about. I have to admit, I have some big issues with motivation from time to time and its too easy to say "meh, couldn't be bothered" (yes, I do have a personal problem, but I am trying my best to overcome it).

Cheers

[jp]

For something in a shutter with X-sync, I'd look for a Fujinar-S 210mm/4.5 tessar.

[hoffy]

For something in a shutter with X-sync, I'd look for a Fujinar-S 210mm/4.5 tessar.

That's the one!

[Drew Wiley]

Fuji also has a 210/5.6 L-series tessar. Not quite as big an image circle as a plasmat, but these had a great reputation with the portrait trade.

[hoffy]

Fuji also has a 210/5.6 L-series tessar. Not quite as big an image circle as a plasmat, but these had a great reputation with the portrait trade.

OK, thanks for the suggestion.

Re, the image circle, would you suggest it would be OK for 4x5 with some movements?

[Bernice Loui]

There are quite a few tessar designs in shutter that have X sync. Just about every shutter made post WW-II has "X" sync.

Fujinar-S..
~~~~~~~~~~


Some others. Never discount a Tessar based on age. Even non coated Tessar design lenses can be excellent.

*Zeiss Tessar.

*Schneider Xenar.

*Kodak Ektar.

*Boyer Saphir

*Docter Optic f4.5

*Caltar, f6.3

*B&J Acutar 6.3

*Komura Commercial f6.3

-Others,
http://apenasimagens.com/en/tessar-carl-zeiss-jena-en/


Nothing special about Lanthium optical glass post WW-II. Lanthium optical glass is a US invention during WW-II with other Nations picking up
this optical glass type post WW-II. Know APO Lanthar was a marketing label similar to Gold Dot, Golden Dagor. By the time the APO Lanthar was introduced, Kodak Ektar has been making production lenses with Lanthium optical glass for over a decade. Kodak never used "Lanthium Glass" as a marketing label hype.



Bernice

[Mark Sampson]

I've used (extensively) both a Kodak 8-1/2"/6.3 Commercial Ektar and a Fujinon-L 210/5.6. Both are fine lenses. I'd happily use either again if I was shooting LF portraits. Of course the Kodaks are all between 50-70 years old, and often have been used hard, so watch their physical condition.

[Pere Casals]

I've used (extensively) both a Kodak 8-1/2"/6.3 Commercial Ektar and a Fujinon-L 210/5.6. Both are fine lenses. I'd happily use either again if I was shooting LF portraits. Of course the Kodaks are all between 50-70 years old, and often have been used hard, so watch their physical condition.

The commercial 14" was a favorite of YK for 8x10...

I'd ask what difference you see in Ektar vs L for portraits, regarding contrast and OOF nature for example.