Film Price Increases

[Pere Casals]

How come all the increases came around the same time that Acros was discontinued?

We have to remember that Acros is not discontinued, what's discontinued is Acros cut sheets, rolls are still there.

As LF film is a minor share in the market, and Acros LF was a minor share of the LF film share ...the impact is zero in the global film market.

If there are other price increases this is because other factors.


IMHO now kodak is facing a volume problem with TXP, the TXP emulsion is specific of sheets, and with that high sheet price and presumably low sells it would make difficult to manufacture small emulsion batches at a competitive cost. Well, we don't know how elaborated is TXP emulsion, if it was made by just mixing TX and TMX emulsions they would have no problem...

With TMX/Y/Z they have the emulsion made for rolls, so a choice they have is killing TXP and launching TMZ in sheets. But TXP killing would be painful...
Another choice they have is replacing TXP sheets for TX sheets.

What could be their reasoning, given that they say they want to continue producing film, and that most of their revenue comes from film?

The ilford reasoning is clear: serve well customers and build loyalty.

I don't understand the Fuji reasoning, I think they were wrong in the film extintion theory and they still have not realized that there is a long term business and they should take care of it.

Instead, Kodak reasoning does not exisit, they are simply lost, they should steal an ilford manager and learn from him, market has changed and kodak does not understand the new market.

Did the absence of Fuji remove the ceiling price?

Not at all, ilford will mantain prices optimal for a long term business, they won't be discouraging film shooters, rather than abusing last captive customers their policy is expanding BW film culture to get profits in the long term.

In the color film segment Fuji/Kodak has no competitor like ilford in BW, this segment is in danger because kodak/fuji can abuse customers with more impunity, searching short term profits instead caring the market for the long term.

Is this a test increase to see how much the market can bear?

In any case this would be the wrong test, as film price is too high the right test would be lowering the price and making offers to see if lower price stimulates demand in the mid term. Problem is that market reaction is slow, because it's also about atracting new shooters, and that effect takes time.

Do people think more increases are on the way?

I don't know, in the BW segment ilford will do a long term policy, with pricing oriented to expand the users base.

Color segment is more complicated:

Fuji may understand they should follow the ilford policy, or they may persist in the "closing policy".

... and kodak it's like lottery, not even themselves know what they will do... IMHO

[B.S.Kumar]

With your deep knowledge of what every film manufacturer is doing, I would have thought you were aware that all Acros is discontinued. Fuji estimated stocks to last until October, 2018. But many large stores in the US and Europe show it as discontinued. In Japan, retailers have imposed a 5 pack limit on 120 and 35mm pro-packs. I am currently facing 2~3 week delays from my distributors.

Those "other factors" is what I wanted to know. If all those processes are "technically a joke" or "mundane", maybe you could become the biggest manufacturer of LF soon.

[koraks]

Many people underestimate the impact of "mundane" manufacturing issues. They focus on one or two critical components and brush off all the rest as "probably easy". My work in industry has told me that 99% of the real world, high-impact problems are "mundane". Mirko''s post that was linked to on Photrio is a nice illustration.

[Pere Casals]

With your deep knowledge of what every film manufacturer is doing, I would have thought you were aware that all Acros is discontinued. Fuji estimated stocks to last until October, 2018. But many large stores in the US and Europe show it as discontinued. In Japan, retailers have imposed a 5 pack limit on 120 and 35mm pro-packs. I am currently facing 2~3 week delays from my distributors.

Those "other factors" is what I wanted to know. If all those processes are "technically a joke" or "mundane", maybe you could become the biggest manufacturer of LF soon.

Sorry, I was not aware of all acros discontinuation, news was March 30, I've been disconected for a while in this matter. https://petapixel.com/2018/03/30/fuj...8-report-says/

Anyway my view doesn't change, for BW film ilford will be pricing for the long term, to encourage new shooters to engage and looking forward, that competition will retain BW film prices in place.

But again in the color segment we have the same, with fuji/kodak not knowing if they are in the closing policy or making a bet for the long term.

Do you find any other mistake in this post? http://www.largeformatphotography.in...=1#post1440994

[Pere Casals]

Many people underestimate the impact of "mundane" manufacturing issues. They focus on one or two critical components and brush off all the rest as "probably easy". My work in industry has told me that 99% of the real world, high-impact problems are "mundane". Mirko''s post that was linked to on Photrio is a nice illustration.

Coating master rolls for sheets is exactly the same, there is a plating that works as an end of travel when approaching the coating head to the drum, a sort of shimming, this is replaced depending on base thickness. What's the "Estar base specific treatment" ? industrially nothing !

What's for boxing the sheets, foma sells a box of sheets for the same price kodak sells the box cartoon alone (exagerating), so should not be very diffcult.

What I've been reading from Mirko is how expensive it is developing an emulsion test batch (he says the numbers), and the risk of failures with a new emulsion development, and commercial risk, and product launching cost.

[B.S.Kumar]

For want of a nail...

[Pere Casals]

Brahmajosyula, let me sumarize my view...

A film manufacturer may have a pricing policy more oriented to A) expanding or conserving the market, or B) more oriented to short term profits...


BW:

In the BW segments we have a competitor with a A policy (ilford), if the other competitor (kodak) follows B policy they will give up a painful market share, kodak follows A for BW rolls and B for BW sheets.


Color:

In the Color film segments we have a competition kodak vs fuji, with some monopolies: fuji with all slides and kodak for C41 sheets, and playing in competition for c41 rolls.

With color sheets Fuji/Kodak are in the B, with rolls more in the A but with some B trends.

In the roll film slides Fuji is in the B for 135 and in the A for 120.

[koraks]

Thanks for making my point Pere. Good illustration.

[Drew Wiley]

There has to be enough overall demand to keep up the production of the sheet base material itself at affordable cost to those who coat it. Most plastics have gone up. Even a loaf of bread has. Doesn't mean I'm going to refuse to eat. But one might have to spend more cautiously. Do you think digital is a cheap alternative? Just look at the price of a blank piece of sized paper or a quantity of ink, or at how often the expensive gear needs replacing. Photography has never been cheap.

[Pere Casals]

There has to be enough overall demand to keep up the production of the sheet base material itself at affordable cost to those who coat it. Most plastics have gone up. Even a loaf of bread has. Doesn't mean I'm going to refuse to eat. But one might have to spend more cautiously. Do you think digital is a cheap alternative? Just look at the price of a blank piece of sized paper or a quantity of ink, or at how often the expensive gear needs replacing. Photography has never been cheap.

Drew don't think film base is manufactured spacially for film, it's is a common raw material.

For example Estar base is bare PET film that is also manufactured by kodak to be served for any application:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180419...ms/default.htm

Estar/PET rolls are served in a number of flavors, the one used for photographic film is hydrophile so emulsion (mostly water before drying) adheres well, this has an special treatment that is performed during the PET film manufacturing, not while coating. It can be an electrophilic treatment https://web.stanford.edu/group/Zarelab/publinks/911.pdf

Well, today digital is cheap (Nikon D610), you can shot a lot for free, you don't need to print, and if you print you spend a single paper because adjustments were made in a PC...

...but ...we are addicted to silver !