5x12/7x17/12x20 Shen-Hao

[e]

The 7x17 is promised to be delivered in 30 days by Shen-Hao. That is probably the time it takes to make one. I just think no one has ordered a 7x17 yet. I had an order for one paid in full but the customer backed out when the "New" price was announced. He was willing to pay the new price but found a used Canham instead for less. But I'm sure this is not "vaperware" Kerry. I'm thinking that it will probably be the best 7x17 in the world besides Ebony (has Ebony ever made a 7x17??). This camera will be stronger than the Canham, cheaper than the Ebony, delivered faster than anyone in the biz.Where else can you get titanium hardware for that price? The more I think about this camera the more I like it. Best regards, Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com.

[Richard Fenner]

Hi Emile

Kerry mentioned weight and bellows extension in his first post, but we're none the wiser on these critical subjects yet. Also, is the cost given ex-China, or within the US, and if the latter, what taxes/charges have been accounted for? (A number of other LFers are also outside the US, and it helps if we can work out the taxes we're liable for.)

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

But I'm sure this is not "vaperware"

Emile,

Until Shen-Hao actually ships a 7x17 camera to a customer, it is, by defnition "vaporware".

I'm thinking that it will probably be the best 7x17 in the world besides Ebony (has Ebony ever made a 7x17??). This camera will be stronger than the Canham, cheaper than the Ebony, delivered faster than anyone in the biz.

I'll reserve judgement until I actually see one in the flesh. Whether or not it is better, stronger and delivered faster than anybody else's 7x17 remains to be seen. Perhaps it will be all of the above, and more. Perhaps it will not. Until they ship product and people actually start using them, we just don't know.

Where else can you get titanium hardware for that price?

Personally, I'd prefer hard black anodized aluminum. It's much lighter, less reflective, plenty hard/strong, corrosion resistant, easier to machine, cheaper, etc. in general than titanium alloys. The choice of titanium alloy may add to the prestige factor (for those who are into that), but it also adds substantially to the weight of the camera. Combined with the teak wood, this will more than likely make the Shen-Hao the heaviest 7x17 on the market. Their 5x12 model already weighs more than the 7x17 Canham, the lightweight Wisner models and, of course, the Phillips. Any idea how much the 7x17 will weigh? When you finally get one in, please put it on a scale and post the actual weight

The more I think about this camera the more I like it.

I've come to the opposite conclusion. I must admit the sudden "price increase" from $2700 - $3700 has put me off. While I might be willing to put up with a heavy camera, if the price is right, that $1000 price increase suddenly makes me want to look for something lighter. Too bad I missed out on that used Canham. There was also a "new" 14 lb. 8x20 Wisner that went begging on eBay last week with an opening bid of $3749 and not a single bidder. Unfortunately, while I have a few lenses capable of covering 7x17, only one of them will cover 8x20 (just what I need, an excuse to buy more lenses).

Kerry

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Kerry, Shen-Hao primarily made an emailed pricing error on the 7x17. It was not a change of mind about the price.There is a big language barrier here so mistakes can happen. I tend to try to be positive about these kind of things. Instead of defining the 7x17 as "vaporware" I think of this as a camera in final development which it is. They came out with a real 5x12 so I would think that they would not intentionally lie about the 7x17/12x20. But it does take time to put a camera out so there can be delays. I'll take titanium or brass any day of the week over aluminum esp for the same price, it just feels better to my hands. I do wish they would make their camera out of cherry or mahogany though. I think the 8x20 Wisner on Ebay had a 24" bellows. Pretty short for the format. Probably a hard sell. Shen-Hao will probably put out all the specs on the wesite when they are ready to or have the time. They have not sent these out to me. But the Ebony 7x17 if made in mahogany is quoted as being 18lbs approximately. Probably the Shen-Hao will be close to that. A few lbs in ULF makes very little difference to me in application. And it will probably make for a more solid camera. The only downside is that when in vertical more stress is apparent. Richard, I have no idea of what custome/taxes will be outside the US. But...I still think this will be a serious ULF camera to be considered mainly because of the potential short delivery times and the fact that potentially this might be one of the best ever. Emile.

[Richard Fenner]

Emile, to clarify:

I'd like to know if the prices you've quoted are direct from the manufacturer in China, which means even those in the US may have extra taxes/charges on top; or if the prices are for cameras you will firstly import into the US, check over, then ship on (in which case taxes/charges will already have been paid by you).

[e]

Richard,
Those were the prices quoted to me direct from Shanghai China. They may or may not include extra customs/taxes expenses on this side of the ocean. If there are extra customs or taxes the customer is responsible for these. Emile.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I would think that they would not intentionally lie about the 7x17/12x20.

Emile,

The term "vaporware" doesn't implicitely imply that someone is lying about a product. Vaporware is simply a term for a product that has beeen announced, talked about, rumored, advertised, etc. but has yet to reach the market. It is a product that is supposed to be on the way, but isn't actually shipping yet. The first rumor I read about the 7x17 was 11 months ago. Back in January, Shen Hao confirmed they had plans to bring a 7x17 to market. Here it is September and nobody has even seen a picture or specs on their 7x17 model, let alone an actual camera. Such delays, as you correctly pointed out, are common in the ULF market. The difference is that while Wisner, Canham, Phillips, etc. all have a waiting list to get their ULF cameras, we at least know that they exist and have used them, seen them in person, or at least seen pictures of them. I have no doubt Shen Hao will eventually bring their 7x17 camera to market, but until they do it only exists in our minds. As of today, I'd put Jim Chinn's ULF cameras in the same vaporware category. They've been talked about for months, but as far as I know, nobody has actually seen one. At least Richard Ritter has shown a functional prototype of his 7x17. So, we know it exists in the physical sense.

At this point, we know nothing about the Shen Hao 7x17, except the price. We have no idea what it will look like, how long the bellows will be, what movements it will have, how much it will weigh, how well it will handle wide angle lenses, etc. But, we do know that it will cost $3700 (plus shipping and possibly import duties). For example, will it simply be a larger version of their 5x12. Or, will it be something entirely different? We don't know. A few weeks ago, they briefly mentioned an FCL717-A model on the "Company Introduction" part of their web site. That got me wondering if their 7x17 model will be similar in design to their new FCL810-A 8x10 model (which shares many basic design characteristics with the Phillips cameras). So, any idea if their 7x17 model will be an HZX model, similar to their 5x12, or an FCL model that shares the same basic design concept with their new 8x10? Any insight into this? Have you seen any pictures or drawings of a prototype? Or, does it indeed just exist in our minds at this time?

I'll take titanium or brass any day of the week over aluminum esp for the same price, it just feels better to my hands.

It all depends on the quality of the finish work. The two smoothest operating field cameras I've ever used, the ARCA-SWISS F-Line and the Layton L-45A are both made out of black anodized aluminum. I personally think Ebony makes the finest wooden cameras in the world, but when it comes to the smoothness of operation, they feel downright crude compared to the precision of an ARCA-SWISS. Also, of you look at the finish of the metal work under a loupe you will see the surface of the titanium parts on an Ebony look extremely coarse while the surface of an an ARCA-SWISS is very smooth. Of course, both cameras are beautiful in their own right, and most importantly capable of making beautiful images limited only by the skill of the photographer. So, I personally like the "feel" of finely-finished aluminum hardware - especially the way it feels in my backpack when I'm lugging it up a steep mountain trail. But, to each his own. Some people may prefer the more traditional look of polished brass, titanium or stainless steel over the more modern look of black anodized aluminum, but that's a different issue. Of course, anodized aluminum can come in a huge variety of colors. Wisner uses gold colored aluminum hardware on many of his cameras to give his customers the traditional look they may prefer combined with the weight savings of aluminum. There's no right or wrong here, just personal preference.

Kerry

[Ken Lee]

When cameras start to move up into this price range, the idea of a build-it-yourself kit starts to sound more attractive to me, and I am someone with only the usual high-school shop-class training, and have no special tools.

Would it be feasible to scale-up the plans of an existing wooden camera, to ULF sizes ? I presume that a simple classic monorail design is easiest, and would violate no extant patents or trademarks.

I am suggesting an "open-source" camera kit, if you will... can you spell LINUX ?

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Before I decided to get the James Chinn camera, I was looking into making the Sinar P conversion. All you need are the standard bearing parts and you can make your own box for the back and make your lens board holder. David Flockhart did this and was kind enough to e mail me directions on how to do them. You can see his camera at the mamut photo site.

http://www.mamutphoto.com/ULF/other.html

I think the Chinn cameras will be a really good deal, last time I talked to him he had finished my camera and now is in the process of making the holders, but if I had not had this option, I would have gone the adapting the Sinar P.

[robert_4927]

I have probably have the last -to -date Wisner 8x20. It is the Expedition model with gold anodized aluminum hardware, 40 inch sheep skin bellows- weight: 14lb. Now I have a titanium Driver ( Titelist 983 to be exact) Which I understand makes me swing faster when I play golf. I also have a Father-in -law that is a retired metalurgist for the now defunct U.S. Steel Corp. He laughs when I discuss titanium cameras. Those who argue that titanium is the cats ass don't know squat about metals as far as he is concerned. He says. " think about application". Titanium is a great metal. There will be the argument that they build racing bikes out of them, so they have to be lighter and better than aluminum. But how many times will your camera go over a ten foot jump, do two flips and land on it's mounting screw. As for it feels better in my hands... they can finish stainless and aluminum to the same micron finish as titanium, so throw that one out the window. In design, they can actually use design techniques such as honeycomb design to make fiberglass and aluminum even lighter than titanium. It is a great marketing ploy but it will take more than the claim it is "Titanium and Teak so it has to be the best in the world" to sell me a camera. Not to mention that no one has even seen one of these cameras yet let alone even tested one. But the biggest point not even made yet is the slight contribution to the destruction of the American economy that Shen-Hao is making. It won't be long before they'll be claiming. " Coming soon to a Walmart near you". Now if I have to explain this we better find a different forum.