New Monorail, a Toho rip-off ?

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

A manufacturer or distributor can not tell a dealer what price the item must be sold at. Talk to your government if you want to change that.

Bob,

I have absolutely no problem with that, and I never said I did. It's a fundamentantal tenent of a free market economy that prices are dictated by an acceptable agreement between a buyer and a seller. I have no desire to change that and have no idea where you got the notion that I did. In fact, what I asked was 180 degrees out of phase with your answer. My question was, why even have "manufacturer's suggest list prices" if they have no bearing what-so-ever on actual selling prices? Why go to the trouble of publishing "suggested" retail prices if those suggestions are routinely ignored? Those questions are directed at you, not my government. I'm sure they have more pressing issues that need their attention.

Kerry

[Dean Tomasula]

"I think Dean is being very naive!"

Jeez, Paul. And here I was being nice to you.

I sort of agree with you (not about the naive part!). If Shen-Hao consistantly acts unethical, or worse, illegal, then you shouldn't buy their products. While I don't know the facts behind "Ebony Clone-gate," I'll take your word for it that Shen-Hao is guilty.

But, are they the only company that has ever done anything unethical? You would think so by reading this forum. One cloned camera does not a pattern make. But, if it is shown that the new monorail is a Shen-Hao camera and a cloned Toho, then I will have to admit that the company has a propensity toward taking the low road and stealing other manufacturers' designs. However, I don't think we've established Shen-Hao's involvement here yet. There may be plenty of circumstantial evidence against them, but we haven't built a case yet.

At least I haven't.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

However, if Robert White had identified the camera as a Layton, or a Linhof, rather than a Shen-Hao, would we still be having this discussion? I wonder. It probably would have rated a reply or two or three

My stance on the issue would not have changed one iota. As I stated in an earlier reply (way up there somewhere), I have no axe to grind in the Shen Hao vs. The World debate. I have never participated in those threads in the past, have never bashed any Shen Hao products, and have recommended their products on several occasions. I've even featured some of their products in articles I've had publised. My participation in this thread has nothing to do with the allegation that the SR45-II is a Shen Hao product. I would have jumped in with equal fervor regardless of who allegedly was making it.

I do, however, own a Toho. So, I'm not 100% without bias on this issue. Regardless of who is behind this (if indeed, it is an unauthorized copy and Toho is receiving no compensation), I feel bad for Toho. They are a very small company, yet they have invested significant resources in designing and bringing unique and innovative products to market. I'd hate to see them go out of business because someone (anyone) has stolen their design and is selling a knock-off for $200 less.

Kerry

[Dean Tomasula]

"I'd hate to see them go out of business because someone (anyone) has stolen their design and is selling a knock-off for $200 less."

I think large format photography lovers would hate to see this happen, myself included. But don't you think you are being a bit dramatic? Is Toho so precariously situated that an illegal copy of one of their designs would push them over the edge?

As Paul said, I think the market will ultimately decide about the clone. If it turns out the camera is an unlicensed copy and that Shen-Hao (or anyone else for that matter) is responsible, then the market most likely will vote against the company by not buying the camera. It will eventually languish on Robert White's shelves unsold (and probably end up on eBay for about $250).

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I think large format photography lovers would hate to see this happen, myself included. But don't you think you are being a bit dramatic? Is Toho so precariously situated that an illegal copy of one of their designs would push them over the edge?

Dean,

I don't think I'm being dramatic at all. Toho is a very small company and the FC-45X is their biggest seller. It is also a VERY specialized product. I have no idea how many they sell per year, but I'd be surprised if it was very far into double digits. I have no sales data on the Toho, but Gandolfi used to boast on their web site that they have never sold more than 50 cameras (total for all formats and all designs) in one year in the 100+ year history of the company. And Gandolfi has more products in their line, more dealers selling them, and their products are a more conventional design that appeals to more users than the Toho. Another LF camera maker once told me any camera that sells 40 or 50 units in a year is considered a runaway best seller - something the Toho definitely isn't. So, if Toho only sells 10 - 20 cameras per year (just a semi-eductaed guess, and that may be on the high side) and the majority of them are the FC-45X, every sale they lose to a cheaper clone has a significant impact on their bottom line, and ultimately their viability as a company.

At the very least, it reduces the likelyhood that they will continue to introduce new, improved products. For one thing, it takes away revenue that could be re-invested in the R&D of new products. It also reduces the incentive of spending time and money to develop new innovative products if some one else is just going to steal your design and undercut you on price six months after your new design hits the market.

Kerry

[Frank Petronio]

It's a shame the Chinese don't copy Wisners instead, it would solve a whole slew of problems...

[paul owen]

One for Kerry! I've had a thought - dangerous I know! But from what I understand the Toho uses circular lens panels? Where are purchasers of the Shen Hao version going to get circular lens panels from? Toho? I don't see any Shen Hao circular panels listed.

[Dean Tomasula]

Just got a reply from Shen-Hao. They say the camera is NOT made by them.

Here's their reply:

"Dear Sir:
We are not make SR45-II VIEW.Thie camera no our make.
Some person is imposture.Thank you tell me this news.
Regards,
Zhang fuming"

Apparently, Robert White is mistaken (is this possible?!!!!)

[Donald Hutton]

Dean

Have little think about this - if either Robert White or Shen Hao are being less than truthful here, in whose interest is it to be less than truthful? I can understand why Shen Hao would be keen to say they didn't manufacture it - I'm not sure why there would be any reason for Robert White to say that they (Shen Hao) did, if the camera was in fact not manufactured by Shen Hao. As I pointed out previously, they have a "habit" of copying the ideas of others...

It's one thing sticking you neck out and proclaiming the Shen Hao 4X5 to be a great entry level camera; it's quite another trying to convince yourself (and others it would seem) that they are an ethical organisation when all evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Well, one question is--how many Chinese manufacturers are there in the LF camera business, and which is which, and who really makes what?

There seem to be a number of items described as "Shen Hao" that may be made by another manufacturer. These cheap 6x12 and 6x17 backs, for instance, seem to come in a number of slightly different variations under the brands "Shen Hao," Da Yi (which seems to be changing its name to "Focus" for the Western market), and Kang Tai--which seems to be a Hong Kong based business. There is some other company making inexpensive wideangle helical mounts on Technika lensboards and a few other items. There is another company making an all metal wideangle camera of its own design. There is another company making inexpensive lens shades, Nikon accessories, and step rings.

Is the situation that there are one or two main shops, like Shen Hao, and lots of subcontractors who may be spinning off their own products? Does Badger deal directly with the factory or maybe through some exporter who markets items from various sources as "Shen Hao," because it is now a recognized brand?

If there is someone in China or with good contacts in China who can sort all this out, it would make a good article for the lfphoto.info page.