New Monorail, a Toho rip-off ?

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Does no one else find it odd that the only dealer of Shen-Hao cameras apparently in the world that has this camera is Robert White?

No, not at all. It's a brand new product that Robert White just started carrying. Do you also find it odd other Shen Hao dealers don't carry other Shen Hao products? I see no menetion of the HZX57-IIAT, the SH512-IIAT or HZX810-IIAT on the Badger Graphic, Midwest Photo Exchange or View Camera Store web sites. Just because no other Shen Hao dealer is carrying this new model does not mean it is not a Shen Hao product.

Who doesn't Badger know about it?

Actually, Badger did briefly carry a Chinese made clone of the Toho. They sold it as the Badger Brand M2. They wisely stopped selling it. I sincerely hope Robert White will do the same.

Why isn't it on the Shen-Hao web site?

Are you saying the Shen Hao web site is 100% up to date and lists every product they make, sell or distribute? If so, how do you explain the fact that they still feature photos and specs of their supposedly discontinued non-folding Ebony clone on their web site.

Do you know for sure it is an unlicensed copy?

No, I only know what the people selling it have said and they said:

"this is definitely a Shen Hao, and that the Shen Hao copy is not made under license."

I have also written Toho to ask if the SR45-II is a legally licensed version of their FC-45X.

Do you know for sure it is not made in the same factory?

I do know for a fact that the Toho is made in Japan, but once again I must rely on the dealer selling the SR45-II when they say it is made in China. Do you have any evidence that it is not?

Is there any evidence of wrongdoing here

Yes, actually there is. The people at Robert White have stated that the camera is a Shen Hao and that it is an unauthorized copy. Just how credible that evidence is and whether or not you wish to believe it is totally up to you. Is their proof beyond a shadow of a doubt? No, there is not. However the only evidence we have says that it is a Chinese made Shen Hao camera that is an unauthorized copy of the Toho FC-45X. Do you have any evidence to refute anything the folks at Robert White have said on this issue?

Take a good look and see if it is in fact a detail-for-detail copy of the Toho. Everyone here is working form a single photograph on the web, not the actual camera.

Actually, there are two photos that show the camera from two different angles. The Toho is such a unique design, I can't really believe you can look at those pictures and say the SR45-II is anything but a blatant copy of the Toho FC-45X. You can believe what you want about whether or not it's a Shen Hao, but there can be absolutely no doubt what-so-ever that the camera shown on the Robert White web site as the SR45-II is a COPY of the Toho FC-45X and not an original design.

Kerry

[Dean Tomasula]

BTW, I e-mailed Shen-Hao and asked if the SR45-II is their camera and if it's a licensed Toho design.

I'll report their answer, when (and if) I get one.

[Dean Tomasula]

"Is there any evidence of wrongdoing here
Yes, actually there is. The people at Robert White have stated that the camera is a Shen Hao and that it is an unauthorized copy. Just how credible that evidence is and whether or not you wish to believe it is totally up to you. Is their proof beyond a shadow of a doubt? No, there is not. However the only evidence we have says that it is a Chinese made Shen Hao camera that is an unauthorized copy of the Toho FC-45X. Do you have any evidence to refute anything the folks at Robert White have said on this issue? "

Then why is Robert White selling an illegal product? And why do they openly admit that it is an illegal product?

If Shen-Hoa is wrong to sell a blatant copy of a Toho camera without permission or license, isn't Robert White wrong to sell the same product? Shouldn't they refuse to carry it if they know its an unlicensed rip-off of a Toho? Tells you a lot about their ethics, doesn't it?

"Actually, there are two photos that show the camera from two different angles. The Toho is such a unique design, I can't really believe you can look at those pictures and say the SR45-II is anything but a blatant copy of the Toho FC-45X."

I agree. The photos do show a camera that looks an awful lot like the Toho, down to the smallest detail. But I am not willing to condemn a company based on two photos on the web. If I could see it in person, or get details from someone who has actually seen one, then I could make an informed decision about the product.

Yes, we can agree that the camera looks for all the world like a detail-for-detail copy of the Toho. But that does not prove it's an illegal copy. It may very well be an illegal copy as Robert White says. But until that is proven, I will refrain from condemning Shen-Hao as criminals.

Hopefully our e-mails to Shen-Hao and Toho will help solve the "mystery" one way or the other.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Unless someone here is an employee of Shen-Hao, or Toho, we have no way of knowing the truth until Toho sues Shen-Hao for intellectual property theft, Shen-Hao suddenly pulls the camera from the market

Dean,

You seem to apply the criminal standard (proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt) to this issue. In fact, in a civil case the standard is different (a preponderence of the evidence) - I know, I served jury duty in federal court a couple months ago.

Obviously, I am not an employee of either Shen Hao or Toho, and even if I was that doesn't mean I would necessarily tell the truth (remember Enron?).

I seriously doubt Toho has the time or the resources to sue Shen Hao over this. Why,? Because they would be a Japanese company suing a Chinese company for selling a product in Great Britain. It would be VERY expensive to pursue this to conclusion through the courts. Unfortunately, it is for this reason that counterfiet products exist. Heck even a company with the financial resources of Microsoft has a hard time preventing people in other countries from selling illegal copies of their software.

Given your conditions (being an employee of Shen Hao or Toho, and/or a verdict in a civil case), I don't think you will ever be satisfied with any evidence showing Shen Hao is wrong in this instance. That's your choice. Just because I disagree certainly doesn't make me anti-Chinese, or even anti-Shen Hao. If they indeed are involved in this, I'd be willing to forgive them if they pulled the SR45-II off the market and went back to making and selling cameras of their own design.

We obviously have two different points of view on this issue. You see Shen Hao as the victim. I see Toho as the victim.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Then why is Robert White selling an illegal product? And why do they openly admit that it is an illegal product?

Dean,

There is a difference between "unauthorized copy" and "illegal". Perhaps Toho didn't bother to patent their design in Great Britain. Even if the copying doesn't violate the letter of the law, it violates the spirit of intellectual property rights. Just because something is unethical doesn't necessarily make it illegal. I have not called the folks at Shen Hao criminals. I do, however, object to blatantly copying the the designs of others, even when there is a loophole that makes it technically legal to do so.

Kerry

[Dean Tomasula]

Kerry, I don't think we are so far off on this one.

If it can be shown that Shen-Hao is doing something unethical (namely selling an unlicensed copy of the Toho) I'll be the first to condemn them and call for them to withdraw the camera from the market.

My conditions are not so stringent. All I ask is that either Shen-Hao acknowledge the camera is not a licensed copy, or that they in fact made it under license from Toho (I don't think I'll hold my breath for this one however), Toho acknowledge that their design was ripped-off without permission (they don't need to sue for this, just a statement here or a press release will do), or someone actually gets a look at the camera in person and reports back as to the "Toho-ness" of the design (they do not need to be a Shen-Hao or Toho employee).

We're all going on third-hand evidence here. Until someone sees the camera in person, or one of the companies either admits to or complains about the "alleged" infringement, I think we should give Shen-Hao the benefit of the doubt.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Hopefully our e-mails to Shen-Hao and Toho will help solve the "mystery" one way or the other.

Assuming both are truthful in their responses.

Rather than continue to beat this poor deceased equine, I'm willing to wait for the responses from the two companies.

The dispute seems to involve three issues:

1) Is the SR45-II shown on Robert White's web site a Shen Hao product (to me that means is Shen Hao involved in any way in the manufacture, sales or distribution of this product) ?

2) Is the SR45-II an authorized copy of the Toho FC-45X?

3) Is the SR45-II a blatant detail-for-detail copy of the Toho FC-45X? There seems to be less contention on this popint ("Yes, we can agree that the camera looks for all the world like a detail-for-detail copy of the Toho").

So, I think the real keys are 1) and 2) - and if it turns out Shen Hao isn't involved AND it is an unauthorized copy, then the issue becomes who is behind this and are they planning to copy other LF camera designs.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Kerry you're claiming Robert White is selling an illegal copy.

Nick,

NO, I AM NOT! Please don't put words in my mouth. I never accused Robert White of doing anything illegal. I have no idea if Toho has any legal protection (patents, or otherwise) on their FC-45X in Great Britain. Even if this camera is an unauthorized copy of the Toho product, that doesn't necessarily make it illegal to sell it in Great Britain. I may find it personally offensive to sell a blatant copy of another company's products without paying a licensing fee or royalty to the orignal designer, but that is a long way from accusing anyone of breaking the law. I personally would never buy such a product, even if it was technically legal, but that just my personal choice - not the law of the land.

Kerry

[paul owen]

I think Dean is being very naive! It obvious that ShenHao have cloned the Toho! They already cloned an Ebony - a fact ... proven! If you want proof from Shen Hao don't rely on their site - you'll wait a heck of a long time for their web-site to be updated ! But have they actually done anything illegal? That is the important question! It would appear that in today's consumer-driven world that it is "accepted" that copies will be made of all sorts of things, from watches to clothes and cameras! But if patents are not filed and copies don't break the law then its a free marketplace - whether we like it or not. Yes its morally wrong, but in all honesty can you see the LF world rushing to knock down Shen Hao's door to buy cheap, (often) poor quality equipment - I think probably not. I'm fairly sure that Toho will not suffer from the latest offering from Shen Hao. Word gets around, potential camera buyers ask for opinions (on forums like this) and products get withdrawn (like the Badger M2). At the end of the day, if Shen Hao have, in your personal opinion, broken a moral code then don't buy their goods - simple! But if you want cheap, large format cameras (with some quality issues) and have little or no conscience or concern about world trading practices then you have one choice.

[Dean Tomasula]

Exactly.

As I've said, on point #3 we agree. It looks to me like an exact duplicate of the Toho as well.

The main point is if its an unlicensed copy, who is behind it. It doesn't matter if its Shen-Hao, or Canham, or Wisner, or (dare I say it?) Ebony. Unlicensed copying, while technically not illegal, is highly unethical. In the end it hurts the entire market, both manufacturer and consumer.

However, if Robert White had identified the camera as a Layton, or a Linhof, rather than a Shen-Hao, would we still be having this discussion? I wonder. It probably would have rated a reply or two or three, but that's it. However, it seems when it comes to Shen-Hao, there are very strong feelings on both sides of the argument, which leads to these marathon threads.

At least this time Paul and I weren't yelling at each other.