How many water changes to wash film?

[Doremus Scudder]

I question the use of selenium toner as described above as an aid in archival washing or increasing negative permanence for a couple of reasons.

First, selenium toning as a protective treatment has to be rather aggressive, which the process referred to above certainly isn't. It has been rather conclusively shown that selenium doesn't really provide archival protection unless the image-forming silver has all been pretty much toned to completion. I think the tests were done on microfilm, but should apply to regular film and prints as well. In the case of prints, complete toning would result in a marked shift in image tone that most would find undesirable. For film, a change in contrast would be the main issue (think negative intensifying in strong selenium toner).

The 3 oz. per gallon that was recommended works out to a 1+43 dilution; too weak to do much toning at all in the short time (4 min.) the negative is in the "PermaWash" (I question using PermaWash as a wash aid anyway, but that's another issue). The slight toning that a negative might get at that weak dilution and short time isn't going to protect it from much of anything as far as I can see. It seems a waste of toner to me.

Second, I don't believe that a weak selenium toner solution can help the wash aid do its job better. If there's a mechanism by which a weak selenium toner solution can speed washing of negatives, I am not aware of it.

I'd love to learn if there is really something to this claim or if it simply ineffectual, as I suspect.

Best,

Doremus

[esearing]

I question the use of selenium toner as described above as an aid in archival washing or increasing negative permanence for a couple of reasons.
I'd love to learn if there is really something to this claim or if it simply ineffectual, as I suspect.

ON the bottle of KRST:
For tone change, dilute 1 part toner with 3-19 parts water. Toning occurs in 2-8 minutes at 68°F (20°C) depending on the paper weight. To enhance D-max areas and protect the image, dilute toner 1:20 or 1:40. To save time, mix toner with hypo clearing agent instead of water. Wash completely-toned prints for 30 minutes, partially-toned prints 1 hour in running water at 65-75°F (18-24°C).

... Use toners to protect prints stored or displayed under adverse conditions.

So Kodak is implying their toners do protect the image, but I suspect all the extra washing has a hand in it too.

Kodak's Sepia toning data sheet doesn't mention protection. However we do know that there is a chemical change if bleached fully.

[schafphoto]

I question the use of selenium toner as described above as an aid in archival washing or increasing negative permanence ... I'd love to learn if there is really something to this claim or if it simply ineffectual, as I suspect.

Doremus

Questioning is good, and so it took me down the rabbit hole. In which I found that the best toner tested in 1988 on Tmax 100 for archival permanence was Kodak brown toner at 1:200 dilution. Selenium 1:19 was an improvement over untoned film, so I would imagine a lower dilution would lessen the effect. It would be tricky to determine what the payoff is in terms of time and expense... does $10.00 of selenium toner buy you 100 years (in theory)? Is that worth it since you and I will presumably be dead? (In theory)

I may be switching to Brown toner 1:200...

Here are the conclusions of the test from 1988
Selenium showed some protection to the TMax film, but some red spots and discoloration were present. Complete protection when used with the Direct Duplicating Film.
Brown Toner provided almost complete protection to TMax film. Results showed almost no discoloration or red spot formation. Brown Toner when used with the Direct Duplicating Film prevented the formation of red spots, however, some noticeably overall discoloration of the film was observed.

An Examination of the Effectiveness
of Various Toning Solutions on Black
and White Silver Halide Emulsions
By Hugh Talman, Chief, Laboratory Branch
Office of Printing and Photographic Services
Smithsonian Institution (1988)

The process tested by Hugh Talman is as follows:

Selenium - The solution tested was prepared 1 part Kodak
Rapid Selenium Toner to 19 parts water. Treatment was for two
minutes, followed by a two minute wash at 70F.

Kodak Brown Toner - The solution tested was prepared 1 part
Brown Toner to 200 parts water. Treatment was for two minutes
followed by a two minute wash.

My question would be is Brown Toner compatible with PermaWash or Orbit Bath or Kodak Hypo Clear in combination.

-Schaf

[schafphoto]

I see HCA is used to stop sulfide (brown) toning, so I guess my question of mixing it with Kodak Brown Toner would be akin to mixing developer and stop bath.
What could possibly go wrong?
-Schaf

[plaubel]

100 years ago, people have tested everything around film (plates), so I love to answer my questions from old books.
They not only give me the "how", they always describe the "why".

1920, Dr. E. Vogel described, that fixing film gives mainly two byproducts which wash out easy in fixing solution but not so easy in clear water.
That's the reason why we have to fix the doubled time after clearing the film.
The film has been already fixed, but we want o remove this byproducts.
Fresh fixer and twobath as an option is recommended in the book.

For me this means, after fixing in weak or old solutions I have to wash very long, so I have an eye on my fixing solution to avoid long washing sessions.

For washing plates, Dr.Vogel recommended half an hour in rinsing water.
That's it, no science further.
And: there exists no gelatine drift after soaking for some hours in water; Vogel describes this soaking as a first step, if you are in holidays.
Back at home, you can rewash as usual, that's what he recommend.
Of course, for now 75 years old plates their exist other rules...

Since old film plates have had thick emulsion and contained more silver ( to remove) than our today's products, I have a good feeling with washing sheet film for half an hour with changing the water from time to time.

Ritchie

[EdWorkman]

I skimmed thru the many many replies. Most are "I like this"
I use Ilford's method, because it is based on TESTS [that I didn't have to do]
If one muses on that scheme, one sees the first wash is very quick- to remove wet residuals from the surface, and are successively longer as the freest products leave.
A tray of water that is full of all the first rinse products is not efficient in removing more- water that has less 'ions' attracts more from the source, so a 5-10 min soak in 'loaded' water is a waste of time. That's called osmosis- and why it takes electricity to produce pure water from heavily mineralled water- one has to overpower the natural flow of ions from heavy to pure water
Thus 'reverse osmosis'. The last wash could be a throwaway purified water with a bit of surfactant
So when using one-shot developer dilutions, I do the first rinse with spent developer, then wash aid, etc etc.
Running water is wasteful and how do you folks that swear by it know that the pattern of fresh water is even? [unless you have tested]
ANd speaking of tests- Did Dr Henry, in his "Controls in Black & White Photography" do any?
That source would be worth checking and quoting. { Years ago I copied some bits from it- don't have a copy]

[pchaplo]

Stephen,

This is just what I was looking for. Thanks.

Paul

This is Jet's reply when I asked him for his selenium-added wash times:

"Add 3oz selenium toner per gallon of your permawash solution. After fixing your film, water rinse 2 minutes, transfer to the permawash-selenium solution for 4 minutes, then 15 minutes water rinse. We used 3.5 gallon tanks in a dip and dunk manual film processing line. It was not unusual to process 200-300 sheets of 5x7 film in one day.” – Jet Lowe.

Attachment 163657

Attachment 163656
All the work I do for HABS, HAER, HALS is now washed this way with added selenium toner in the mix. I use the hanging stainless racks from CARR (4x5 or 5x7) and four small clear plastic tubs for the wash sequence.

-Schaf

[pchaplo]

Stephen,

What form of processing did Jet Lowe and Jack Boucher use? Did they use hanging racks in tanks?

Paul

Hi all,

Just to add another element to the process...

I got this washing process from Jet Lowe at Heritage Documentation Programs at the National Park Service in DC. They administer the HABS, HAER, HALS documentation programs. Their standard is based on hypo tests and seeks LE500 (a life expectancy of 500 years) in cold/dry storage: 45º F and 35% Relative Humidity (negatives are stored at Fort Meade, Maryland in a specially built facility). I imagine Jack Boucher and Jet were using this for decades. If this blog is still around in 500 years somebody set a reminder to check and see if it worked. ;-)

This is Jet's reply when I asked him for his selenium-added wash times:

"Add 3oz selenium toner per gallon of your permawash solution. After fixing your film, water rinse 2 minutes, transfer to the permawash-selenium solution for 4 minutes, then 15 minutes water rinse. We used 3.5 gallon tanks in a dip and dunk manual film processing line. It was not unusual to process 200-300 sheets of 5x7 film in one day.” – Jet Lowe.

Attachment 163657

Attachment 163656
All the work I do for HABS, HAER, HALS is now washed this way with added selenium toner in the mix. I use the hanging stainless racks from CARR (4x5 or 5x7) and four small clear plastic tubs for the wash sequence.

-Schaf

[xkaes]

I skimmed thru the many many replies. Most are "I like this"
I use Ilford's method, because it is based on TESTS [that I didn't have to do]
If one muses on that scheme, one sees the first wash is very quick- to remove wet residuals from the surface, and are successively longer as the freest products leave.
A tray of water that is full of all the first rinse products is not efficient in removing more- water that has less 'ions' attracts more from the source, so a 5-10 min soak in 'loaded' water is a waste of time. That's called osmosis- and why it takes electricity to produce pure water from heavily mineralled water- one has to overpower the natural flow of ions from heavy to pure water
Thus 'reverse osmosis'. The last wash could be a throwaway purified water with a bit of surfactant
So when using one-shot developer dilutions, I do the first rinse with spent developer, then wash aid, etc etc.
Running water is wasteful and how do you folks that swear by it know that the pattern of fresh water is even? [unless you have tested]
ANd speaking of tests- Did Dr Henry, in his "Controls in Black & White Photography" do any?
That source would be worth checking and quoting. { Years ago I copied some bits from it- don't have a copy]

Yes, Dr. Henry did. He would not trust anyone's recommendation -- even from a manufacturer. There are just too many variables, he would say, so test it yourself. Plus it's pretty easy -- but not as easy as just taking someone else's word for it.

Test for proper washing of the film/paper (the removal of all the fixer during the wash step):

A. Expose, develop, fix, wash and dry a sheet of the selected film/paper using any desired exposure and developer combination, and method.
B. On the emulsion side place one drop of test solution:

water 1.30ml
acetic acid 0.05ml
silver nitrate 0.01g

C. Wait two minutes.
D. A barely visible or no stain is best. Continue washing if a stain appears and retest.

[Duolab123]

Hi all,

Just to add another element to the process...

I got this washing process from Jet Lowe at Heritage Documentation Programs at the National Park Service in DC. They administer the HABS, HAER, HALS documentation programs. Their standard is based on hypo tests and seeks LE500 (a life expectancy of 500 years) in cold/dry storage: 45º F and 35% Relative Humidity (negatives are stored at Fort Meade, Maryland in a specially built facility). I imagine Jack Boucher and Jet were using this for decades. If this blog is still around in 500 years somebody set a reminder to check and see if it worked. ;-)

This is Jet's reply when I asked him for his selenium-added wash times:

"Add 3oz selenium toner per gallon of your permawash solution. After fixing your film, water rinse 2 minutes, transfer to the permawash-selenium solution for 4 minutes, then 15 minutes water rinse. We used 3.5 gallon tanks in a dip and dunk manual film processing line. It was not unusual to process 200-300 sheets of 5x7 film in one day.” – Jet Lowe.

Attachment 163657

Attachment 163656
All the work I do for HABS, HAER, HALS is now washed this way with added selenium toner in the mix. I use the hanging stainless racks from CARR (4x5 or 5x7) and four small clear plastic tubs for the wash sequence.

-Schaf

Wow this is so cool. When you think about really long term preservation you really need to do something this elaborate. Selenium is a very cost effective treatment. Thanks for sharing. I've got to go write this down.
Best Mike