Airport X-Rays, Part II

[francisco_5406]

Considering that Arab Muslims constitute the vast majority of modern hijackers and terrorists, I don't think we should cowtow to blanket political correctness everytime somebody disparges those who kill innocent people. If it is so awful for people to be embarassed by harsh words, or to have security scrutinize Arabs more than others, then the most effective thing for people to do is to stop terrorism. And while heightened security might prevent terrorism, only a shift in Arab Muslim beliefs and culture will STOP terrorism. We should be objective enough to say that outright, without getting shouted down by the people who place political correctness ahead of the basic right not to get blown up by an Arab Muslim terrorist.

[Dan Fromm]

Um, er, ah, Francisco, is the late T. McVeigh an arab muslim? I think not.

Is ETA an association of arab muslims? I think not.

Is the IRA another? I think not.

How about the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam? Those lunatics in Uganda?

Take your short swarthy blinders off.

[francisco_5406]

Bite me Dan.

[Capocheny]

"Bite me Dan."

Fran, fran, fran...great rebuttal! Very intellectually oriented I see!

Your argument is as weak as that of Dan S'.

BTW...aside from Dan Fromm's list, it occurs to me that there were a couple of Americans who were fighting with the terrorists over in Iraq, wasn't there?. As a matter of fact, didn't one of them open fire on some of his own mates? Or, something along those lines? I believe he's facing a court-martial, isn't he? [I could be off on the exact details here but I'm sure you know the story.]

So, it seems to me that your strategy (and Dan S.) is to "take them out first and stop the problem from getting bigger!"

Hmmm... I'd hate to be an American under yours and Dan S's regime! They'll be coming around to haul you away "JUST IN CASE YOU DO SOMETHING!" Didn't the Gestapo do this in Germany at one time? Or, the equivalent secret police in Russia? McVeigh IS an American and look, he's not even a "raghead!! Therefore, under your regime... ALL Americans could/would be put under strict scrutiny because it's impossible to tell WHICH AMERICAN IS/CAN POTENTIALLY BE A TERRORIST! Throw the Constitution out the door! Forget about civil liberties! It seems to me that your forefathers (and all the people who died in the World Wars) would be rolling over in their graves! After all, their fight for democracy has just been tossed into the garbage under your regime! ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! No, no... I mean it! It's ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! Then, after this has all been accomplished... we should take a look at the Japanese (because, they were against the US in WWII), or the Koreans, or the Vietnamese! Who next? Who next? Ha, after that, we should take away the rights of older people because they're draining society of its resources! When are YOU going to run for office? Gads, I'd vote for you straight-away, if not sooner!!!

I just can't see how your current government wouldn't enact legislation that would take your advice under consideration and put it into effect right-away!!!! Or.... is it that they recognize the flawed logic in what you're suggesting? Remember, your President came out in full support of the notion that NOT ALL ARAB MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS and that there are hard working US Arab Muslim residents that should be treated as equals to any other US citizen. I applaud George W. on that point!

Nobody here is saying that the guilty parties shouldn't go un-punished for their atrocities. NOBODY! In fact, they should be tried and, if found guilty, punished to the FULL extent of the law...capital punishment included! Those people who planned the 9/11 attacks are nothing more than cowards and murderers! No doubt in my books on this point... however, you're implying that people (Arab Muslims) should be deemed guilty first... just because they're Arab Muslims ("ragheads.") (I think this is called Racial Profiling, isn't it?) Then, it's up to them to prove they're innocent! Just persecute their a**es!!!

As for your statement, "...only a shift in Arab Muslim beliefs and culture will STOP terrorism."

I'm ABSOLUTELY sure that rounding them all up and scrutinizing them closely will most definitely change their beliefs and culture and STOP terrorism.... DEAD IN IT'S TRACKS, right???!!!!

fran.... take 2 seconds, take a deep breath and THINK about the comment that you've just made. Yup, I knew you'd get it sooner or later... it's a bloody inane statement, isn't it? If you don't get it... go back and re-read the above paragraphs!

Prejudism and scrutinization will most definitely change their attitudes and beliefs! And, I'm SURE they'll ALL be absolutely greatful for the humiliating experience that you're suggesting they be subjected to... just because they're Arab Muslims! BTW, they should also be greatful for receiving 36 lashes too... just for being an Arab Muslim! Yes, this will definitely endear them to your way of thinking!

"without getting shouted down by the people who place political correctness ahead of the basic right not to get blown up by an Arab Muslim terrorist.

--francisco, 2005-05-04 09:35:13"

No, neither Dan or I suggested this... we're simply saying that NOT ALL ARAB MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS AND NOT ALL TERRORISTS ARE ARAB MUSLIMS. Again, I'm sure there are Arab Muslim Americans who are working diligently in all levels of your government, defense forces, etc to protect the safety of your citizens (and homeland) against terrorism (as they should.) We're simply stating that you CANNOT tar and feather every Arab Muslim as a terrorist... or potential terrorist because of their family backgrounds.

We're NOT shouting you down... it's just that responding to the posted comments is like shooting ducks in a pond. It's so easy to recognize and follow your thought patterns and illogical arguments on this subject. However, when a logical argument is put forward... you respond by saying, "Bite me Dan." I'm sure that a pre-schooler would have rebutted Dan's comment with a, "Point well-taken!" because Dan F's comment are irrefutable! There IS NO argument... period!

Enough said! Before you say it to me, fran... I'll say it on your behalf:

"Bite me Henry"

LMAO!

Have a wonderful life fran!

Dan F... thank you for making your point. Some people just don't get it!

Chris,

I certainly do apologize for taking your original thread OT... I just couldn't resist shooting all those ducks in a pond (figuratively speaking!) It would have been great fun had the topic not been so serious!

Cheers

[Dan Fromm]

Thank you, Chico, for the kind word.

All kidding aside, the big risk with profiling, especially when the item (most cancers, bomb-toting anarchist, knife-toting terrorist, ... ) sought is rare is that the vast majority of "positives" profiling models generate are false. This isn't a horrible problem when it sends us junk mail for long distance carriers, credit cards, ... , but it is a horrible problem when it leads to abusing people.

Not everyone agrees, but I think the cost of our anti-terrorism efforts far exceeds the benefits. I've pretty much stopped flying with photographic equipment because of TSA. TSA is a joke in very poor taste. Ineffective, expensive, obnoxious. And we're stuck with it.

Back in the bad old days, as in 1992, I flew to Paraguay with a case of 35 mm cameras and lenses and another of S8 cameras and lenses for them as hand baggage. Carried 'em on board, also a lot of film. I wore a battery belt for the Omni-Lite that was packed in one of my suitcases. The security screeners at PHL didn't know what to make of the battery belt, so sent for their chief. It turned out that his day job was doing SFX for low-budget sci-fi movies. So we had a nice discussion about my home-made battery belt -- he admired it -- and about the difficulties of shoestring cinematography. Now THERE was an intelligent and informed and polite screening.

Cheers,

Dan

[Tom Diekwisch]

Hi Michael,

I did mean standard X-ray machines for passenger luggage screeens. The airports were Logan and somewhere in Florida and the same thing return.

[Michael S. Briggs]

Tom, the person who specifically mentioned the machine that damaged his film was Dave -- a CTX5000. A bad experience with one of these machines isn't evidence that the non-CAT-scan machines will damage film. Logan also has similar machines. Are you sure that your film didn't go through one of these CAT-scan type machines? When you say "passenger luggage", do you mean carryon or checked? You mention "spotty fogging" -- this sounds more like the damage that a CAT-scan type x-ray machine would do, since they use a relatively narrow beam. Does your damaged film look like any of the examples in the Kodak article, http://www.kodak.com/global/en/servi.../tib5201.shtml?

[Tom Diekwisch]

Thanks, Michael, I did mean carry-on and I would never have film in checked luggage. And no, it didn't resemble examples on the web site you mentioned. It was more spotty in certain regions of the film than in others. It was more foggy and diffuse than the lines on the web site you quoted. Three films almost totally unusable. Some great shots. Irreplaceable. Embarrassing.

[francisco_5406]

Typical replies - interjecting Tim McVeigh, the IRA, etc. into a war against Islamic extremists. Insulting my intelligence. Not making any real suggestions for improving things, other than acknowledging that the TSA is a joke and making puseduo-scienctific claims that profiling Arab-Muslims doesn't work. And that is why, out of political correctness, we have stupid TSA rules and a high likelihood that the next terrorist attack will also be caused by - you guessed right - Arab-Muslims.

Munch, munch, munch, bite me

[Dan Fromm]

Chico, its time for a cold shower. And then learn who and what you're discussing with. Its bad form, also bad luck, to rant at strangers.

TSA could, if it wanted, adopt the practices of whoever handles security for El Al.

I earn part of my living by building targeting models. One can sometimes make more money by using a good one than by using none, but that doesn't mean they discriminate very well. Terrorists are quite rare, fortunately, except in Iraq, and spotting them isn't easy.

I'm not sure why we put so much emphasis on terrorist outrages that involve commercial aircraft. Perhaps another example of preparing to fight the last war. And I don't understand why we have so few trash bin, car, and truck bombings. Or why we have so few outrages that involve railroads. Many are the ways to disrupt and alarm.