new digital neg system from cone

[Michael Mutmansky]

Walker,

Can you help me understand what you mean by QTR linearize Quad droplets? I am unfamiliar with this term. Are you referring to the ink droplets? And what do you mean stable interpolation?

Mike

He's referring to an app that is used on the Mac (and also on the PC I think, not sure) that linearizes the file with an adjustment curve automatically.

However, it struggles to properly linearize a curve if there is data the isn't constantly increasing, and even if it is increasing, sometimes it fails to succeed (presumably because it is a little too discontinuous).

In the PC, the process to develop the curves is a little different because of the GUI program that was developed, so I don't think the app is used in the same way, but I believe the same calculations are made when using the linearize function in the Curve GUI.

[sanking]

He's referring to an app that is used on the Mac (and also on the PC I think, not sure) that linearizes the file with an adjustment curve automatically.

H

And a bit of clarification, if necessary, it is a Linearize Quad droplet that was developed by Roy Harrington. The creation of the aplet was preceded on the QuadTone Rip forum on Yahoo by extensive discussions about how to farther linearize an existing Cone profile, since these can not be linearized with traditional QTR creation tools. If we create a profile with the regular QTR tools, and linearize it with GRAY-CURVE or LINEARZE, we can adjust it later by going back and re-doing the curve, but the rest of the profile remains intact. With the regular tools really good profiles can be created with 21 point curves, 51 is overkill for most applicaitons and definitely problematic with alt processes. But it appears that the use of the droplet to correct a Cone profile requries a lot more points than would be needed for the first linearization with regular QTR tools.

One of the drawbacks, IMO, of the previous Cone digital negative methodology, Methodology 2, was that there was no way for the user to adjust the profile with an internal curve. Rather, the user had to apply the curve to the image file. If the droplet works as hoped, it will make the Cone digital negative system much more flexible.

Sandy

[WalkerBlackwell]

"it appears that the use of the droplet to correct a Cone profile requries a lot more points than would be needed for the first linearization with regular QTR tools."

It actually doesn't "need" anything more than what other methods take. By default the base-negs are algorithmically and UV/Pan density smooth. To properly explain the potential of this system, what we realized is that with Piezography inks and proper ink values for all 6 shades and the proper calibration tools set, we could measure and calibrate 256 patches. I built a linearizer in-house to do this for negatives. Roy's linearizer only does up to 129 so we limited it to 129 for PiezoDN customers. That said, we didn't see much different between the 129 and 256 other than when we were doing the initial master curves (that was good at 256).

This system is so way beyond 21 it's hard to really compare it. But 21 would certainly work for it just like it does for every other QTR curve.

What we did find was that if there are sharp changes in curve data on a 21 step target, the linearizer can over-correct. (This is the case with all QTR utilities. It's the same base math.)

best,
Walker

[George Pappas]

Walter,

I appreciate the explanations as I have been a Cone B&W printer with the Selenium inkset for some time and looking for a system like this. Can you comment on the smoothness of the results for Silver Gelatin printing? This has been a common issue with past systems using inkjet negs compared to straight silver gelatin printing with "original" large format negs. Printing with more textured papers and other alt processes (Silver Gelatin is now an alt process!) do not bring out lack of smoothness the way that fiber based silver gelatin printing does.

Much of the PiezoDN material speaks to platinum/palladium so not sure how good you think this really is for Silver Gelatin (still my favorite) printing.

Thanks in advance for your candor....

Regards,
George

[bob carnie]

I too am interested in how the performance is against silver film, Walter can I send a file to you to print a neg and I will match size and make a silver neg here and print both negatives it on Ilford Warmtone, my paper of choice? I would pay for your negative output of course.
I would love to see a practical comparison on 16 x20 paper.
Bob

Walter,

I appreciate the explanations as I have been a Cone B&W printer with the Selenium inkset for some time and looking for a system like this. Can you comment on the smoothness of the results for Silver Gelatin printing? This has been a common issue with past systems using inkjet negs compared to straight silver gelatin printing with "original" large format negs. Printing with more textured papers and other alt processes (Silver Gelatin is now an alt process!) do not bring out lack of smoothness the way that fiber based silver gelatin printing does.

Much of the PiezoDN material speaks to platinum/palladium so not sure how good you think this really is for Silver Gelatin (still my favorite) printing.

Thanks in advance for your candor....

Regards,
George

[George Pappas]

Excellent Suggestion, Bob! I'll help with the costs if Walter is game so that I can see the real thing in the flesh - would split the negative charge and ask that you make a second print for me. For me, it is all about highlight differentiation...the result will tell the tale. If it meets the test, then it will be worth the investment.

Regards,
George

[bob carnie]

I would ship both negs to you as well George so you can actually see with your own workflow and paper. Should be a good test for those wanting to see the difference.
I have a vested interest in the silver neg output so it would be good for other workers to compare apples to apples.

Excellent Suggestion, Bob! I'll help with the costs if Walter is game so that I can see the real thing in the flesh - would split the negative charge and ask that you make a second print for me. For me, it is all about highlight differentiation...the result will tell the tale. If it meets the test, then it will be worth the investment.

Regards,
George

[WalkerBlackwell]

I would love to but do not have the printer in-house that we R&D'd silver densities for. We actually donated that to Maine Media Workshops (our one epson 4900). The 9900 that we are currently doing R&D on actually has a different head and nozzles (so different densities). We are getting a device (and building a workflow) for us to translate densities from one film-type/printer to another without going back into the darkroom every time. The second that is done I can do sample silver negs. Anyone with a 4900 and selenium can do it right now with the base .quad. We actually don't have a silver darkroom in our little rural facility in Vermont but if this device takes too long to arrive I'll do the 256 silver neg density translation by hand to get it rolling on the 9900. But the truth be told, I the sample silver prints we ran (almost as an off-shoot) at MMW were smooth and fully matched the monitor.

[bob carnie]

So could you recommend someone who could make a good neg using your system that I can send a file too for my testing purpose?

I would love to but do not have the printer in-house that we R&D'd silver densities for. We actually donated that to Maine Media Workshops (our one epson 4900). The 9900 that we are currently doing R&D on actually has a different head and nozzles (so different densities). We are getting a device (and building a workflow) for us to translate densities from one film-type/printer to another without going back into the darkroom every time. The second that is done I can do sample silver negs. Anyone with a 4900 and selenium can do it right now with the base .quad. We actually don't have a silver darkroom in our little rural facility in Vermont but if this device takes too long to arrive I'll do the 256 silver neg density translation by hand to get it rolling on the 9900. But the truth be told, I the sample silver prints we ran (almost as an off-shoot) at MMW were smooth and fully matched the monitor.

[WalkerBlackwell]

Of the group of people who bought the system (at launch yesterday) I'm not sure who has a 4900. I'll send the call out.

In the interim I'll work on getting these densities translated.

best,
Walker