Age of Wollensak 6¼" (159mm) Extreme W.A.

[Arne Croell]

Ok, after rereading this thread, another speculation:

I recognized that all the numbers seem to have 6 digits or less (if I count the letters as one digit) and the highest number without letters was 9xxxxx. Maybe for some reason Wollensak did not want to/could not engrave more than six digits and once they reached 999999 they decided to use the alphabet letters for the first significant position? Each letter would give them another 100000 units.

If no letters above E are in existence, that would mean that they produced about 500000 units after the switch to letters...

Reasons for engraving only six letters? I don't know, but can again speculate:

1. No more room on some of the smaller mounts (actually the 159mm EX.W.A. is a good example), at least not without changing font size

2. Limitations of the engraving machine(s)

3. Engraving 7 digits takes longer than engraving 6, reducing productivity (this was before CNC machines, so some labor costs were involved).

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Arne,

I also wondered if the Wollensak serial numbers were merely a simple hexadecimal sequence (or more accurately an aphanumeric sequence - it looks like they went out of business before they got to "F"). Does anyone see any data in this thread that would disprove Arne's hypothesis? It certianly makes sense that the Pro Raptars would have the highest serial numbers (starting with D and E). The one exception would be the "G" series lenses Wollensak made for Graflex.

There is also quite a bit of variation in serial numbers for the post-WWII "Wocoted" 159mm Extreme Wide Angles mentioned in this thread. I seem to have the two lowest serial number Wocoted samples (703227 and 736166) mentioned. We also have examples starting with 8xxxxx, 9xxxxx, Axxxxx and Cxxxxx (an f9.5 sample). These lenses were all likely made during Wollensak's peak production period (1945 - 1960). So, if the serial numbers are simply sequential, it would make sense that they would have gone through a wide range of numbers during this time period.

Kerry

[Chauncey Walden]

Kerry,

My 569,xxx f/12.5 is Wocoated. FWIW, I also have a 330 triple convertible with a B prefix number (and no dots) in its original leather covered box. I just went searching in the box to see if perchance there was a date clue. On the back of the cloth covered recessed board that centers the lens was a glued in square piece of newspaper that was probably used to keep the fresh glue from sticking to whatever was below. Anyway, it was part of a sports page from a Buffalo, New York, paper. It had the results of a Rams vs Lions game and an October 31 date. I checked the series record and the score matched the date in 1954.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Chauncey,

Great bit of detective work. So, if we make a fewl assumptions, perhaps we can reach some tentative conclusions.

First, assume the Wollensak serial numbers are sequential and cover all lens products (this is consistant with other manufacturers of the day - Goerz, Schneider, Rodenstock and Zeiss).

Second, assume no serial numbers with more than six digits, with the first digit ranging from 1-9 followed by A-E (where A is equivalent to 10xxxxx, B=11xxxxx, C=12xxxxx, D=13xxxxx and E=14xxxxx).

So far, the lowest serial number we have on a "Wocoated" lens starts with 5xxxxx. We also know that the "Wocoted" (big "C" surounding smaller "W") was first used in 1945. The lens on the cover of my April 1, 1954 catalog starts with Axxxxx. Thanks to Chauncy's detective work, we know that a lens starting with Bxxxxx dates to late 1954. And, a lens dated July, 1956 starts with Cxxxxx. We also have some later Pro Raptars (both taking and enlarging) with Dxxxxx and Exxxxx serial numbers. While this limited data set doesn't prove the assumptions I've made, or Arne's hypothesis, the data is consistent with the assumptions and the theory.

So, just in rough numbers, if we use 5xxxxx = 1945 and Bxxxxx=1954, it looks like Wollensak (in theory) made about 600,000 lenses over than nine year period. Which equals roughly 66,667 lenses per year. Just for the sake of comparison, Rodenstock made 1,000,00 over that same nine year period and Schneider made slightly over 2,000,000 lenses during that time period. So, the 600,000 total production number for Wollensak lenses for that particular nine year period certainly seems within the realm of possibility.

If the assumptions are valid and the theory holds, that would mean my two 159mm f12.5 Extreme Wide Angles date to approximately early 1948 (serial number 703227) and mid-1948 (serial number 736166). It would also date the "Yellow Dot" lens (serial number A84258) pictured to approximately late 1953 or early 1954. Note, even if the assumptions are true, these dates are still approximations assuming a consistent yearly rate of production. The actual dates, given the assumptions are true, are likely to be plus/minus 1 year).

Again, this is based on assumptions and theory, but the conclusions are consistent with the limted set of known data.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

P.S. Even if my above assumptions are correct, the data set I used only covers the years 1945 - 1954. The approximate yearly production number of 66,667 lenses per year can probably be extended out another couple years, but by the late 1950s, it appears Wollensak began to lose market share. Certainly by the mid-1960s, their yearly production volume had been reduced to a fraction of what it was during Wollensak's peak from the mid-1940s to the mid-1950s. And by the end of 1972, their yearly production had dropped to 0 units. Even if the assumptions are true, we need more data to generate approximate production dates for Wollensak lenses made after about 1956 or 1957.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

One additional tidbit of somewhat related trivia. The first Goerz Red Dot Artar was made in October of 1953. Based on the above assumptions, the Yellow Dot 159mm Wollensak Extreme Wide Angle with serial number A84258 would have been made not too long after that (late 1953 or early 1954). Perhaps this was Wollensak's way of keeping up with the Joneses (or Goerzes) and using colored dots in the marketing of their large format lenses.

Kerry

[Dan Fromm]

Um, Kerry, about colored dots. They appear, sometimes and for no apparent reason, on 7"/2.5 Aero Ektars. Some of the lenses have more than one dot. Those dots have also given rise to much fanciful speculation.

Yours in confusion,

Dan

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

They appear, sometimes and for no apparent reason

In other words, "marketing purposes". Seriously, I do think the apearance of these colored dots on lenses almost always was the result of some new marketing campaign. Sometimes, the dots may actually hve a specific meaning (coated, color corrected, etc.), but other times I think they were just used by manufacturers to distinguish their latest and greatest products - and to shame the owners of dotless lenses into upgrading.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

OK, I did a bit more detective work last night to try to disprove the assumptions above about Wollensak serial numbers. I did eBay seaches on "Wollensak lens" for both current and completed auctions. After wading through over 300 eBay listings, I did not find one example that would void the assumptions made in my post with timestamp 2005-03-14 13:18:54. Of course, many of the listings did not have photos that clearly showed the serial numbers, but of those that did:

There were a great number of Wollensak lenses with serial numbers starting with 1xxxxx, 2xxxxx, 3xxxxx and especially 4xxxxx. None were coated, none bore the Wocoted symbol, and none were labeled Raptar. I think it's pretty safe to say these were all made prior to 1945.

I did not find any Wollensak lenses with serial numbers starting with 5xxxxx or 6xxxxx.

There were a lot with serial numbers starting with 7xxxxx, 8xxxxx and 9xxxxx, and Axxxxx. All were coated and clearly displayed the Wocoted symbol. Most, but not all, carried the Raptar trade name. None were labeled Velostigmat. These were all clearly post-1945 production.

There were also many obviously later products with serial number starting with Bxxxxx, Cxxxxx, Dxxxxx and Exxxxx. These mostly consisted of Pro Raptar enlarging lenses and oscilloscpoe lenses, along with a couple Graphic Raptar copy (process) lenses.

Other than one Graflex lens that started with Gxxxxx, there were no lenses listed with a serial number above Exxxxx.

While it does not prove my assumptions and Arne's theory beyond a shadow of a doubt, the data remains consistent with the theory and assumptions. The Wollensak serial numbers appear to be sequential and follow the 1xxxxx - Exxxxx pattern Arne described above.

The one thing I did disprove, was my "Yellow Dot" theory. I only found two more lenses carrying "Yellow Dots". One of those (a current listing) was a little 90mm f6.8 Raptar Wide Angle that was made ofr the US Army and is clearly engraved "SIGNAL CORPS". It has the Wocoated symbol, the infamous "Yellow Dot, and I cant quite make out all six digits of the serial number, but the first is the letter "C". This example fits in nicely with my previous hypothesis that the Wollesak Yellow Dot was a reaction to Goerz starting to label their APO Artars with a Red Dot. The second example, a completed auction, shoots that whole theory right out of the water. The exact engraving on the lens reads:

WOLLENSAK VELOSTIGMAT 9½" FOCUS SERIES II f4.5 No. 308685

And there is a bright Yellow Dot betwen the serial number and the word WOLLENSAK.

This is an uncoated Velostigmat that obviously dates before 1945 and was made several years (likely 10 - 20) before the first Goerz Red Dot Artar.

So, the meaning of the Yellow Dot remains a mystery. Did it signify a lens made for the military? Was it a way for Wollensak to identify their "best" lenses? Who knows. At this point I'm willing to accept Dan's assertion "about colored dots. They appear, sometimes and for no apparent reason".

Kerry

[Blaine Baker]

Kerry-

The following is from my lens:

-LENS: WOLLENSAK 6 1/4" (159MM) f/12.5 (W VELOSTIGMAT EXTREME W.A. NO 569300

- SHUTTER: APLHAX WOLLENSAK ROCHESTER U.S.A.

Comments: The (W on my lens is yellow whereas the rest of the printing is white. "ALPHAX" is in caps and is red.

Blaine