Beginner: Regular or DB lenses?

[Bernice Loui]

Do a search on this forum on Sinar Shutter.

Facts are, the perceived vibration problem is precisely that, user perceived problem. As a Sinar shutter user since the early 1980's to this day and exposing thousands upon thousands of sheets of film from 4x5 to 8x10, in controlled studio conditions to cold wet rainy outdoor conditions, that Sinar shutter continues to work to this day.

If vibrations were a problem would Sinar continue selling the same basic design for decades and not have a customer base revolt with rejection of shutter vibration induced problems?

What does need to be done, hold the shutter release down until the exposure time is complete. this makes a very significant difference in the amount of shutter closure kick-back.

As for 1/60 sec being a limitation, consider how often sheet film exposures are made at that shutter speed? Adding a neutral density filter easily fixes this possible issue with the 1/60 second shutter speed. What is far more useful is the shutter timing of 8 seconds.

The Sinar shutter does indeed allow using most any lens or optic on camera. This is a HUGE advantage if there is an interest in using vintage optics in barrel or non-standard optics. That is when the Sinar shutter comes into it's own.

DB lenses are more of a user convenience feature that is more useful in the studio setting than in the field. Beyond the self stopping down feature, adding the film holder coupling cable closed down the shutter when the film holder is in place.

The later black version of the Sinar shutter release cable is not cheap, but holds up well. The earlier chrome versions is not nearly as robust. Shopping can take the cost sting out of purchasing a Sinar shutter. Consider for a moment why the Sinar shutter continue to hold market value while the Sinar camera values are less than the cost of a Sinar shutter.

Lens choice should be dictated by image making needs (this is where it becomes complex with no easy answers) rather than cost.


Bernice

[Peter De Smidt]

"If vibrations were a problem would Sinar continue selling the same basic design for decades and not have a customer base revolt with rejection of shutter vibration induced problems?"

It all depends on the extent of the problem, doesn't it? And the only way to know that would be to do careful tests, which aren't easy to do. You'd need the same lens in a DB mount and a Copal shutter for starters. How many people have photographed for years with a film plane alignment issue, or film holders that are slightly off, or a not perfectly stable tripod.... Without a standard of comparison, it can be difficult to see the loss of quality, which can be subtle, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there. Nonetheless, even if there is a loss of quality with the Sinar shutter, it doesn't mean that one can't be used to take great pictures.

I have a P2. It's easy to feel the vibration difference between a Sinar shutter and Copals.....

[Bernice Loui]

Indeed, film inspected using a Leitz research grade microscope would reveal shutter vibration problems, no?

Been a Sinar P, C and F user for decades yet to discover or find a vibration problem with using the Sinar shutter.

Voicing your opinion, OK. Now prove the Sinar shutter vibrations results in image sharpness problems.

This is already developing into another fight over nothing..


Bernice

"If vibrations were a problem would Sinar continue selling the same basic design for decades and not have a customer base revolt with rejection of shutter vibration induced problems?"

It all depends on the extent of the problem, doesn't it? And the only way to know that would be to do careful tests, which aren't easy to do. You'd need the same lens in a DB mount and a Copal shutter for starters. How many people have photographed for years with a film plane alignment issue, or film holders that are slightly off, or a not perfectly stable tripod.... Without a standard of comparison, it can be difficult to see the loss of quality, which can be subtle, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there. Nonetheless, even if there is a loss of quality with the Sinar shutter, it doesn't mean that one can't be used to take great pictures.

I have a P2. It's easy to feel the vibration difference between a Sinar shutter and Copals.....

[Peter De Smidt]

Yes, of course. I have to prove my contention but you don't. Nicely played.

In their brochure on the shutter, the folks at Sinar say:
"The release at the B setting is particularly soft to permit completely silent and vibration-free exposure when the camera is precariously mounted or in other special cases (e.g. also for multiple exposures.)."

Why would they point that out if there weren't cases where the vibrations caused by the non-B settings caused issues?

There are a number of online discussions where people see vibration problems with Sinar shutters, along with other people saying there is no problem. Anyone interested should get one of their own and see for themselves.

[Peter Yeti]

Peter,

I don't think we need to start a "religious war" on this topic and I don't see much disagreement anyway. No question that the Sinar shutter causes "more" vibration than a built-in central shutter. But does this matter in practical application? I can second everything that Bernice wrote from my own experience. You are a Sinar user yourself and you may agree that they don't make foul compromises regarding image quality.

Anyway, here is an illustrative test I made for myself once, actually one I did with all of my cameras. It wouldn't pass scientific standards, though. I level the camera on a solid tripod and place a coin on top of the camera, sitting on it's edge. Then I trip the shutter and watch what happens. Using the Sinar shutter, the coin may shake a tiny bit if you look very carefully but it doesn't fall. That is, if you handle the cable release carefully as with any other camera. This test also revealed that most of the vibration happens after the exposure, exactly as Bernice wrote. Same set up using a central shutter of a lens shows no perceivable vibration in agreement with your point. Now the interesting comparison: When I did the same test with my Hasselblad, the coin fell down roughly every second time. I think that should give some confidence in using a Sinar shutter. Of course I wouldn't recommend using it on a ramshackle tripod. I think that's what the manual refers to.

Piece?

Peter

[8x10 user]

I started with an 8x10 P2 and DB lenses. DB lenses are a great way to save money but keep in mind that the Sinar system is not very portable compared to field camera alternatives.

As for vibrations, I have drum scanned and eversmart scanned the chromes I shot with this system and I estimate the resolvablity where in focus to be ~3000 PPI. These were mostly outdoor shoots and were not done under flash lighting. Vibrations from the shutter did not seem to be an issue. Of course a 4x5 kit would have lighter lenses which may be more vibration prone.

For my digital work I use a Sinar 54h with SinarCam 2.

[Peter De Smidt]

Good to know.

[Bernice Loui]

Previously posted. Scroll down to post# 38.
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...t+artar+images


Image made using a Barrel (ex-process camera lens) 19" Red Dot Artar @ f16 with Sinar shutter, Sinar C, windy day by the bay. Look at the cropped-scanned section. See any vibration problems? or lens not optimized for infinity problems?

Have yet to see a ruined sheet of film from Sinar shutter vibrations over the thousands of sheets of film exposed over decades of using barre lenses with a Sinar shutter.


This will be the last comment made about this vibrations from the Sinar shutter affecting image quality. If one does not believe, get a Sinar shutter in proper working order and do the test on their own. Do consider why Sinar sold these shutters for decades since the Norma until Sinar stopped offering DB lenses. If there were vibration problems that affected image quality, Sinar users would have stopped purchasing-using the Sinar shutter decades ago.... and if the Sinar shutter was such a problem, their market value would not be what they are today... previously stated.

Bernice

[Peter De Smidt]

Analogously, if sheet film holders can give less sharp images than glass plates, then users would've stopped purchasing sheet film holders decades ago. Nonetheless, standard sheet film holders don't hold film as flat as a glass plate, and careful tests show that it can impact recorded detail. None of which means that you can't take a very good photo with sheet film in standard holders.

[Alan Gales]

I own a Sinar P 4x5 and picked up a Sinar F outfit off of Ebay cheap due to it missing the rail clamp. I parted the outfit out keeping what I wanted and selling the rest. I sold the Sinar shutter and cables that came with the camera but I played with the shutter before I did. I will say that it is really slick to use. If all your lenses are mounted on DB boards or you use barrel lenses it is the way to go in my opinion. The problem I had was that all my lenses were in shutter and mounted on Technika style boards so I could swap them back and forth between my Sinar and my Tachihara.