Bob Salomon, the Heliopan trademark, and ebay

[Donald Hutton]

Alec...

I have no problem with your opinion being expressed here as to how stupid or lacking in common sense I may be (although that may not be within the guidelines for posting on this forum, but you are obviously clever enough to know that). What I suggested is that as you actually have no idea of my business experience, you should not be expressing opinions about it.

[Jon_2416]

Yep. Saloman and his ilk are some of the worst things to happen to the LF community. Please Bob, please, retire quietly and let someone competent and less antagonistic in your place.

With such pathetic promotion of brands like Linhof, one wouldn't think he would have time to harass ebayers trying to sell used equipment.

I don't buy Heliopan ( or many of the brands HP deals in) in the US. I buy directly from Europe--and unlike what Bob will spew, customs hasn't stopped a single item--they have more important things to look for.

Please do your best to cut HP right out of the loop--the LF community deserves company reps that actually have some ethics.

Feel free to email me for contacts in Europe. You won't have to support HP ever again.

[Thilo Schmid]

I am surprised that some photographers do not seem to value trademarks. A trademark is similar to a copyright. It is as well a protection of an intellectual property. What would you say, if someone advertises his photographs with your name?

[Kirk Gittings]

Thilo,

People on the secondard art market sell my images all the time. Say they bought a b&w print many years ago and now are trying to sell it. They post an ad that says I have a Kirk Gittings image for sale blah blah for so much. They have the right to do that. They do not have the right to reproduce it and that is where copyright comes in. And this is not any different as far as I can tell than what Don did.

[Ryan McIntosh]

Kirk,

Actually, if I owned one of your photographs, I would have the right to reproduce the image if the purpose is strictly for advertising that I have the item for sale. This is no different than Kmart showing an NFL licensed jersey in a sunday advertising flyer.

Ryan

[Bob Salomon]

" this is not any different as far as I can tell than what Don did"

In your case someone is selling an item with your name on it.

In Don's case he was listing an item for sale and using the Heliopan name in the sale when there was no Heliopan item offered in that sale.

Another user of Ebay yesterday listed a "generic" filter for sale in a Helipan box. When we looked at the image of the filter/box combination it was obvious that this was not a Helipan box.

We questioned how he knew it was a Heliopan item and the response was that it was actually another manufacturer's box. He changed or cancelled the ad on his own.

Once again no one stopped Don from selling his filter. He was stopped from listing Heliopan in his ad for that filter.

[Mark Sawyer]

Well, I don't think I'd buy anything from Bob *or* Don until I found out just where they stand on Olivier Meriel's burning and dodging techniques...

[Donald Hutton]

Bob

Let me just clarify exactly what happened - I listed several items - some Heliopan filters and some other filters too. With my ad for a Nikon circular polarizer, I had a line at the bottom of the ad saying "See my other auctions for some Heliopan and B+W filters". Note - this was not in the listing line, just right at the bottom of my description. It is now obvious to me that this reference goes against an Ebay selling policy guideline, which I, at the time, did not know about (in fact depsite Bob's kind reference to the specific guideline, I still cannot locate it in the mire of guidelines). I understand that they may have reason to have this policy - it is afterall, their business and their users are obliged to do whatever they say. However, my auction was cancelled on the complaint in writing of HP Marketing, that this line in my auction infringed their trademark. Please note, that Ebay informed me that for them to cancel an auction on this basis, they require a written complaint from the trademark owner stating the specific listing number etc. What I do not understand, Bob, is why HP Marketing in this case, utilize Ebay's policy (it's not law afterall, just an Ebay condition) to enforce this sort of thing? Do you really believe that I am ruining your business? My listing for your Heliopan filters actually sings their praises, but you act in an obstructive fashion for what reason? Incidentally, when sending out emails to your customers, you should consider a salutation; it's not only good manners, but I hear that it's good business practice too.

As for "burning and dodging" it's right in the front of my mind at present, but I shall not mention the context or subject for fear of contravening any other guidelines this week...

[Kirk Gittings]

Ryan you are absolutely right.

Bob I think I understand your point, but in all honesty I think you are losing the propaganda war here. I don't see how this issue in the used market is hurting you. If the seller is misrepresenting something he will get called on it by the buyer. By you getting involved in this it appears just overbearing. You have great products and you make insightful and useful contributions on this forum but I can't see that this line of inquirey benefits you.

[Bob Salomon]

"What I do not understand, Bob, is why HP Marketing in this case, utilize Ebay's policy (it's not law afterall, just an Ebay condition) to enforce this sort of thing? "

Because some people were/are violating or attempting to violate our Trademark and this makes us enforce every violation that we find. We can not selectively try to enforce violations.

In one case an individual on 100% medicare was selling product new after importing them improperly and then operating as a store.

In this case he was not reporting the income to Medicare or IRS or the state he was in. Nor was he collecting sales tax on sales within his state. However he was competing with legitimate stores with rents to pay, employees to pay, families to feed, insurance to pay, taxes to pay, registration and license fees to pay.

His activities led to our being assigned the Trademark and our registering the Trademark and our enforcing the Trademark. And if it is not enforced we can lose the right to enforce it.

At the moment their are about four dozen ads on Ebay for Heliopan items in the USA so there is no reason why you can't also sell them. The enforcement comes in if you are trying to export them to the USA on Ebay, if you are an unauthorized dealer trying to sell new Heliopan items. If you are not a dealer trying to sell Heliopan items as new when they were not sold directly to you by us (in other words you bought them from a store and are now re-selling them as new) and if you did what you did, list Heliopan in an ad for something else.

Sorry for the inconvenience but we were following the rules as posted on Ebay under Policies: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/hub.html?fromFeature=My%20eBay&ssPageName=f:f:US then under "Rules for Sellers"

These are Ebay's rules for selling items on their site. Unfortunately many or most listers do not seem to be familiar with them. If they were these kinds of misunderstandings/problems would disappear.

We are not accusing you of knowingly violating or trying to circumvent policy. You just fell into a violation.