BW inkjet print quality

[tim atherton]

Jorge makes an important point.

I've often printed something up as in inkjet print and thought hmmm - those blacks don't really seem that black - especially when it's something I've also printed on silver gelatin.

But then I go back and look at the negative and/or scan and realise that the blacks aren't black at all - in fact often quite far from black. On urban work, where you often get "man made" blacks in signs and such, those usually do come out as nicely black. but what I accept as blacks in silver gelatin are usually the papers characteristics killing all the shadow detail and taking it down to black. In a way it's an accepted characteristic of silver gelatin paper we have adapted to, accept and use.

Yes, you can dodge stuff, but often people A) don't want to - because they prefer the look of a more compressed range and B) sometimes all the dodging and burning in the world won't make that much difference (as well as making for tedious printmaking...)

Basically I find that I get a much wider range going from negative to scan to inkjet print than I do negative to enlarger to silver gelatin. (even contacts on Azo etc)

What is problematic is the psychological aspect. You look at the scan in Photoshop and see all that shadow detail, you print it on a good inkjet system on a good paper and often see even more shadow detail showing itself, and then think - hmmm doesn't really look like my darkroom prints though - with their more compressed range.

At that point, there is a psychological hurdle - you find yourself loath to throw away all that lovely detail just to get areas that look like the deeper blacks of a silver gelatin print.

It's easy to do though - you can compress the bottom end of the scale (and the joy of digital is you can do it without losing highlight detail if you don't want to) to mimic the look of a darkroom print - it can work pretty well. In fact in Franks example, that's often what I see in those big Bruce Webber fashion - the range is compressed so the whites and blacks stand out more with more the look of a silver gelatin print.

In the end, the inkjet prints especially on cotton rag papers have a different look. In some aspects it is more akin to a Pt/pd print - yet different again.

On holiday I fond a nice $5.00 copy of Arentz's Outside the Mainstream catalogue, the book plates obviously made from Pt/pd prints and it struck me how similar the look and feel (as opposed to the content and composition) was to what I get in many of my inkjet pigment(ed) prints

(just for the record J - I'm not saying inkjet/pigment prints and Pt/pd etc are the same... :-0 )

So in part you can find subjects that fit it, and in part you can learn the process better and experiment with it more - many prints I see aren't pushing close to the limitations of the process - there is much more flexibility than people often seem to take advantage of. But in a way, trying to make an inkjet print look like a silver gelatin pritn is often a mistake.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

just for the record J - I'm not saying inkjet/pigment prints and Pt/pd etc are the same... :-0

I understand, but I think the approach to printing is very similar in both. We both have to "live" with lower Dmax values in the prints than commonly expected for silver prints.

IOW, choose the subject carefully to fit the process.

[Henry Ambrose]

Here is my version:

When a photographer selects a print method or technique I assume that he picked it because it helped speak what he meant to say in his pictures. But this may not be the only reason for his selection of silver, platinum, inkjetted or laser exposed paper, black and white or color. Adams wrote about printing a show much too dark and not selling a thing. He simply picked wrong in his look, which was brought home to him by the result. Other commercial considerations also come to mind. If I thought I'd sell quite a few prints and wanted the most return for my labors I'd sure try to sell digital prints that could be reproduced my machine. Especially if my pictures could not be easily (if at all) made in a wet darkroom. Photographers have many ways to print today that did not exist in the past and if we are to expect new work that looks like old work we will be dissappointed. And who is to say that the work must be done in one way or another?

It seems to me that Tom recieved different messages from the show prints and the book prints and that might be a slight problem for Tom but certainly a problem for the photographer in question. If people don't buy his prints then in that one way he has failed.

On the other hand we do have to open our eyes to new ways so we don't fail to see something worthwhile. Perhaps the question is, when we get a taste of a new flavor (lets say strawberry lasagna) do we spit it out or do we relish it?

[bob carnie]

Hello Folks

Some of the comments here have raised a nagging question in the back of my mind. I would like to address this question to those who have experience with multiple printing , ink jet , or platinum.

I have been forturnate enough to be involved with a few books over the last couple of years. ie I made the fibre prints and then books were published.
I have always noticed that in printed books that are done well a beautiful range of tones from brilliant white to deep deep inky black. Now I understand that the printers are using a varnish, second hits , bla bla bla to do this. there fore creating the image jumping off the page.. For example if you look at Anton Corbins book Star Trak , the images are kick ass . His original printer used the lith process, oriental grade 4.
I started lith printing when I saw this book and it has taken quite a while to get my prints looking as impactful.

So back to my point I believe there is a nice *jump* that happens with well printed books , that is hard to match with a straight silver print. I saw this *jump*after my prints were scanned and printed for these books.

Now I am thinking that multiple hits are the way to go, For example Platinum is a contact process under UV light source. I used a NU arc plate burner and have used large strosser pin systems in past work. Could one not make skelatin black exposing masks and highlight exposing masks to multiple print in register with the main negative. In effect layering density on the print.

Ink jet. can a epson printer be made to operate to do multiple hits on the same sheet of paper, Allowing the operator to build up layers of ink , that may not be possible with the one hit method .

My prime area of interrest is silver , and there fore I am hoping to coat my own emulsions in the future and apply this multiple hit method to build up the layers in a print.

My good friend John Bently just came by to press out some of his colour carbon paper prints and this is exactly how he is doing his prints.. they are by far , the best colour prints I have ever seen and as well they are permanent.

So what do you think, Is this a method some of you are applying with your work? Do you ever think of this *jump* and what causes it??

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Could one not make skelatin black exposing masks and highlight exposing masks to multiple print in register with the main negative. In effect layering density on the print.

Yes you can, I am not sure that it will increase the the Dmax of the print all that much, but certainly some people do 2 or 3 coatings on paper. This is the same principle for Gum over platinum, print a platinum image then print a gum image over it with the same neg.

I have an old Condit punch and I have been thinking for a while to do this. Just remember, if you are going to try it, you gotta shrink the paper first.

[bob carnie]

Jorge

I was thinking that the multiple hits would happen at the first exposing stage rather than multiple coatings as you suggest.
I do this with split silver printing and I find that by lowering the initial exposre grade and hitting the black in with the higher filter , I am able to get good highlight midtone , as well a very good black.

so could you not make a lower contrast coating for platinum to handle good highlight and midtone , and build up the blacks with multiple hits??

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

You would have to change the emulsion contrast. I cannot see a way to do that unless you recoat. Certainly you can use a low contrast coating for the highlights, expose, recoat for the shadows and expose, but I dont see a way to do it with one coating, unless you are willing to do glycerin development and use the contrasting agent in the developer. Pt/pd does not lend itself to many of the tricks we use in the DR. This is one thing I envy about those doing ink jet negatives. PS is a powerful tool in the sense that you can adjust minute parts of the negative.

[bob carnie]

Jorge

I am in the process of installing a lambda in my shop here, I am certain that I will be able to run film through this unit and process in large drums on my Lambda. I have asked another user of alternative printing to submit a file to produce a ps file exposed directly onto film for alternative applications. Would you be interested in trying this experiment?? There would be no timing issues at my end or pressure on your end. I do indeed plan to get back into platinum but not for a year or two. I need an experienced printer in this process to try this with me . If so send me an email and I can discuss it with you further.

[Michael A.Smith]

Frank Petronio: Weston's photographs have been reproduced with the richness in the blacks of his original prints. In the book Edward Weston: Life Work.

Bob Carnie: Platinum prints are being printed with multiple negatives (one a skeleton black) by Salto, in Belgium. They are the finest and richest platinum prints I have ever seen.

And in an earlier time, Irving Pebb's platinum prints had a real richness--and very deep blacks.

[tim atherton]

Just got an email that sumarizes (better than I did) exactly what I was attempting to say above:

"Among other examples, I can
easily print a 21 step wedge digitally that shows all 21 distinct steps. In
the darkroom the best that I could generally do using silver paper was about 10 or
so steps (i.e. about five stops). With film and silver paper you lost
separation at one end or the other or both. The only darkroom process I
ever used that could equal digital in showing all 21 steps distinctly was
van dyke brown."

Of we may disagree about exactly how many steps any of us can manage to wring out of silver gelatin paper etc