Ownership of information and the rights of users

[Corran]

Recently, I see a large thread was deleted at the "request of the OP."

This begs the question, at least in my mind, about the ownership of information posted on this site, and the rights of the users who both post and read such.

I believe the current policy is to delete a thread whenever a poster requests their thread to be deleted, for whatever reason. I personally take umbrage with this, but it is secondary to my next point. When a thread is deleted, not only is the original poster's content deleted, so is all other posts by other members of the forum in that thread. I think this is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There may be a lot of valuable information deleted along with everything else. Why does the OP of said thread have the power to request the deletion of this valuable information when they did not create it?

I believe this kind of deletion is an intrusion on the rights of the users who posted in the thread but did not wish for their posts to be deleted.

Often, a user is asked when posting a question, if they've searched the archives. That's a valid question, but if some thread gets deleted, the information is lost. This obviously isn't an everyday occurrence but I think it should be considered. For instance, what if one of our forum members dies, and their family asks for their posts to be deleted - first, what would the forum do, and second, would whole threads be pruned that may have 100's of pages of info? For instance, the x-ray film threads, or maybe the DIY enlarger light source thread.

I am merely pointing this out. The thread in question doesn't concern me at all but I was thinking about the broader implications. This was a major source of debate over at the RFF, since an OP can delete their posts at any time, whenever they wish, and it will take out a thread completely if it's the first post. This happened in a large thread and a lot of people had contributed to it and were upset.

Furthermore, regarding postings on this forum, I also wonder if a user should have the power to request deletion of their content to start with. Who owns the information once posted? Is there a policy? I did not see one on the FAQ. This also is an issue with the limited time given to edit posts. Every other forum I participate in has an unlimited time for editing posts. It can sometimes be helpful to edit posts for posterity, even years later, as I have done on occasion elsewhere to clarify or include information, especially if it happens to be bumped and brought back on top.

Just some things to consider.

[StoneNYC]

I debated responding to this, but thought it would be ok to do so in a thoughtful way.

It's often important to consider the REASONS these kinds of things happen.

People don't just decide to throw out threads they have put actual blood, sweat, and months of work to try and share knowledge with others. It takes a lot to make a person want to throw all that away.

Perhaps we should consider our own actions that lead to such an occurrence and try and correct our own behavior.

Respect other forum members. Not push them to the point that they have to make such a drastic request as a thread deletion.

This forum is becoming more and more like APUG, and perhaps if we can simply be reminded that it's important to respect our fellow members, and not belittle them or put them down for their efforts, these kinds of things will become non-issues.

Food for thought.

As far as family members requesting deletion, to my understanding, moderators will take down individual threads, but they won't delete every thread created by an OP, it's too much work, so I don't think that part will be much of an issue.

[Lachlan 717]

Actual blood? I think hyperbole has once again got the better of you, Stone.

[Corran]

Stone, I have to say again that it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm sure there was valuable information in there. Maybe from you, maybe from other contributors. Locking the thread would have been fine, if you/the mods thought it was getting out of control. But wholesale deletion?

My point is that should you, as the thread creator, have the power to request deletion of not only your posts in that thread but everyone else's as well? I think it's an important question. And it doesn't have anything to do with the misbehavior or disrespect (from both sides). I'm ignoring all that and focusing on the value of the information and how such an occurrence should be handled.

[StoneNYC]

There are always consequences for our actions, sometimes "throwing the baby out with the bath water" is a consequence.

People tend to forget that on forums because they have a false sense of anonymity or something like that, and feel they can behave differently on a forum than they would in real life. In the real world for example, if you mock someone, you might get punched in the face for being a dick. On a forum, that natural fear of retaliation that would normally keep us "in check" is absent, and so people tend to "act out" more.

So there have to be some consequences. In this case I asked respectfully that people stay on topic and please stop bullying and to not "make fun" and be helpful instead of hurtful.

Instead the antics only escalated further. So the only one to blame for the loss of the information are those who couldn't be bothered to be nice and respectful.

Consequences.

It's not hard to simply respect someone, to leave them be if you don't like what they are saying or to debate in a respectful way. But to just blatantly mock, well that just shows that you have no respect for the person, nor the information contained in the thread, and therefore you don't deserve to have access to that information. Truly.

Call it "tough love" or perhaps a "wake up call" or whatever you want, but the fact is without the threat of consequences, people will not keep their own manners in check, so now and then when things get to be like "the lord of the flies" with no order, some drastic occurrences need to happen to wake people up and remind them that there are consequences and that they need to behave themselves and conduct themselves in a manner worthy of gentleman and not those of a bunch of children abandoned alone on an island, because that leads to chaos, disorder, and death (or in this case death of a thread).

And yes I cut myself a few times on the sharp metal parts of the iron base before I re-painted it.

[Corran]

In the real world, you then go to jail for assault.

Let's focus. It seems you want to make this thread about you and your feelings. It's not - and that thread was merely a catalyst for the question. Let's also not forget that at the end of the day, you aren't a moderator, so what constitutes "consequences" for other members is not up to you.

More importantly, there are other possibilities where a request for deletion may come up that has nothing to do with why that thread derailed (as I said, what about the death of a forum member?).

[StoneNYC]

In the real world, you then go to jail for assault.

Let's focus. It seems you want to make this thread about you and your feelings. It's not - and that thread was merely a catalyst for the question. Let's also not forget that at the end of the day, you aren't a moderator, so what constitutes "consequences" for other members is not up to you.

More importantly, there are other possibilities where a request for deletion may come up that has nothing to do with why that thread derailed (as I said, what about the death of a forum member?).

True, sorry, you're right, you did mention the deleted thread, but also mentioned other reasons.

For my last point, ill mention just that we often have the idea of "entitlement" that we are somehow entitled to the information.

That may not always be true even though we feel we are entitled to it, perhaps the respect of the person who's requesting deletion (be it the OP or the OP's family after death etc) takes precedence over the information itself. Information is important, but respect is also important, moral choices to respect a grieving spouse may take precedence over the thread itself. (Even if losing it sucks).

Just something to consider.

I've said my peace, I'll let you guide the thread or pursue other thoughts about this, sorry for making the previous posts about me.

[TXFZ1]

Some people will post to ask questions that they only want the answers that confirm their thoughts. When someone post a opposing view, this seems to frustrate them and they react. I think my only entitlement is to decide to share something or not. Once I share it; it there for people to comment, prove it stupid or what ever. I try to only post what I know about and learn from those that know more than me.

Disinformation is one of the worst and scariest things about the internet. A few bbsers seem to perpetuate the disinformation. To be honest, I think killing that thread was a good thing as hopefully some kid will not mount a fire hazard in a room full of chemicals. I used the x-ray threads but had to pick-out the best information for myself. The final cut only had about three different bbsers post and was less than 10 posts total.

Let's face it, we are all not cut from the same cookie cutter. There are control freaks, attention or post whores, and rude people out in the real world. I try to ignore most of it but every once in awhile, feel the need to post my opinion. I have this privilege just as everyone else that follows the bbs rules and are not banned.

The constant belittling of APUG is getting old. I don't know the full history but it should be left at APUG and not brought over here to start a forum war. This speaks volumes of the person posting the comments.

Just my opinion,
David

[vinny]

If I had made 12,000 posts between here and apug since joining the forums in 2012 and wasn't happy about the environment, I'd be wondering if part of the problem was not thinking before I typed.

[ic-racer]

Does the first poster really own the thread anyway, I think not. I can lay the first brick of a building but if others come along and build a skyscraper, the building is not mine. A first post is like seeding a crystal, that is how a forum works. A first post should not be treated like a completed document. Complete documents should go in the "files" section.