Best Format?

[Ginette]

I've tried to figure out how to make this less of a loaded question but I don't think that's possible.

What is the best large format in terms of brand new equipment availability? I was thinking about 5x7, but it looks like the only newly manufactured film holders are $120/ea., and you could wait weeks for delivery.

So, what are thoughts on 4x5 and 8x10?

If you wish to make contact only, goes with 8x10, maybe 5x7 depending of your photography.
Why new? f you look actually in the For Sale section, you have a very nice choice of 5x7 and 8x10 cameras, high quality and some look like new.

[ibuprofen]

Thanks for the 1500 word reply, hope you’re not too disappointed if I don’t do the same.

The problem I have with used equipment is the lack of information about it’s past. Indeed businesses buy used equipment all the time, but you said yourself these are especially big-ticket items. However, those usually come with much more information about their past use. Once I oversaw a deal where several million dollars in printing presses were purchased. Each press had a run count, maintenance record, trained expert operators, original bill of sale, operational environment quality confirmation, etc. The point is we knew enough to make an extremely accurate estimation on the accrued depreciation. With used camera equipment, that’s not usually a reality. The reliability of a particular piece of equipment to produce a future stream of revenue is also important for many reasons and used camera equipment doesn’t instill the most confidence. I have a couple more reasons but I’ll save those for another time.

I only mentioned ROA (and carefully stated it was only one thing to consider) as a tongue-and-cheek way to make a point. I didn’t mean to kickoff a long discussion on proper business valuation. I too would look at many additional things depending on the type of business under consideration. Besides, if I ask nine other investors their opinion I’ll get nine different replies, but thanks anyway! Your fingers must be hurting.

[Jim Jones]

. . . More information on my situation would include: these will be contact prints and the equipment is for a business. . . .

This settles the question of film size, unless those contact prints are to be enlarged or reduced. Contact prints which are never to be enlarged free the photographer from the need of the absolute best in lenses: good enough is good enough.

As for the reliability of used equipment, buy what you can examine, and test it thoroughly. Testing a lens and shutter in all environments in which it will be used is important for anyone concerned with reliability. I trust equipment that I have used more than new gear. Complete backup of all essential equipment is better insurance than spending perhaps even more on a new, but relatively untried, outfit. New is not necessarily better. There are many reasons why some of us like some older cameras, lenses, and tripods. Some of it has been proven over many years to be more reliable than modern equipment that is engineered or styled to be different, not better.

[djdister]

Given the context of this thread, all the talk about new vs used equipment is a bit silly. New LF gear isn't really that big of an expense, especially compared to capital expenditures for things like buildings or major equipment. I can recall the price tags on things like 4color offset presses, or even motion picture cameras with price tags over $100,000. So go buy new stuff, if you can find it...

[Heespharm]

Given the context of this thread, all the talk about new vs used equipment is a bit silly. New LF gear isn't really that big of an expense, especially compared to capital expenditures for things like buildings or major equipment. I can recall the price tags on things like 4color offset presses, or even motion picture cameras with price tags over $100,000. So go buy new stuff, if you can find it...

I think if this is a full time job yes... Buy it new and write it off as a business expense... If this is a hobby... Buy what you can afford... No reason going into debt bc of a hobby...

[Old-N-Feeble]

I have a lightweight 4x5 wooden field camera and a heavy 8x10 metal monorail. I can't carry the 8x10 into the field due to mobility issues. I would have to purchase a lightweight 8x10 to shoot in the field. I recently considered selling both cameras and buying a Chamonix 5x8 but I've 'nearly' decided against that because the lens kit I would choose for a 5x8 field camera is essentially identical to what I would choose for 8x10. The only weight savings would be approximately three pounds so I might as well get a lightweight 8x10 camera. I really like the 5x8 format and the fact that it's only one cut from 8x10 film but since I can't shoot much anyway the cost savings on film is basically moot. This leaves me with both 4x5 and 8x10 kits. It also leaves me with two separate lens kits with only two shared lenses between the formats. The upside is I'll have a reasonably lightweight 4x5 for when I can't carry the 8x10 kit. I haven't 'absolutely' decided against 5x8 just yet because I could raise more than enough funds to buy the 5x8 Chamonix and the two additional lenses I'd want for it plus I'd pair down to just one camera kit. That stated, since the 5x8 kit will be nearly as bulky and heavy as a lightweight 8x10 kit then why not just piece together a very nice 8x10 kit?

Decisions... decisions... and yes, I'm aware that I'm rambling.

[Fr. Mark]

No one mentioned whole plate yet. Amazing.

I like the size/shape. I don't own such a camera, but I have some Xray film fogged at the bottom or short edge (didn't close the bag all the way before turning the lights on, dumb, I know). I drew whole plate frame lines on my home built 8x10 camera's ground glass to make better use of its unfogged area so now I've got a "reducing back" in a manner of speaking for WP.

And if you happen to have a WP camera, supposedly Ilford will cut film for it if you use a special order program.

You can crop 8x10 even as contact prints. No law against it.

I'm setting up to take a Sinar P w/ 4x5 and 5x7 into the field and use it at home, too. I think mostly it'll be 5x7 as contact prints or scans and diginegs for cyanotypes.

I tried 5x8 with a pinhole camera to see if I like it. Not the shape I'm looking for.

Depending on how you slice 8x10 film to make it 5x7 film, you could have 1x8" strip of which'd make interesting panoramas with pinhole cameras or jammed into 35mm cameras...no waste.

[Fr. Mark]

Thinking about formats and accounting made me think about my wife's piano studio and piano replacement quandry. It's surprisingly analogous to LF "best" format question:

She doesn't want digital pianos to teach on, though some are pretty amazing and they do stay in tune.

She doesn't want tiny format or medium format pianos (no spinets, no studio uprights).

She prefers the large format equivalent of a 5x7 camera: 6 foot grand pianos, which are too big for many people who prefer 5x4 pianos, excuse me 5'4" pianos to get a LF (grand) piano in a small space but have issues with sound quality (ability to enlarge really big) and we can't imagine ever having space (physical or acoustical) for 8x10 or ULF pianos (i.e. 7 and 9 foot concert grands), though some, some are truly astonishing musical instruments in the right hands (hands of the piano technician and pianist).

And even though we are in awe of UULF pianos we've seen (played) in galleries (stores) having extra bass strings/notes to bring the usual notes into a sweeter spot in the sound board (Bosendorfer imperial grand) perhaps analogous to those who shoot 20x24, that is not something our art requires. Though we are very comforted and blessed to know it exists, it says something about mankind's quest for perfection or some such.

We also saw once, a 7 foot grand with what was, in its day, the very best automatic player piano mechanism, fully restored. Cost more than the house we were living in 25 years ago. Stunning musically. Not sure what that's analogous to. Maybe the ?mythical? Sinar E?

As to the accounting, in my way of looking at it, sure buy new if that works for you and your accountant and wallet, but cash (in hand) is king. Allows the ultimate in flexibility. Promises of tax gains, your mileage may vary. or put another way "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger."

[Tin Can]

Thinking about formats and accounting made me think about my wife's piano studio and piano replacement quandry. It's surprisingly analogous to LF "best" format question:

She doesn't want digital pianos to teach on, though some are pretty amazing and they do stay in tune.

She doesn't want tiny format or medium format pianos (no spinets, no studio uprights).

She prefers the large format equivalent of a 5x7 camera: 6 foot grand pianos, which are too big for many people who prefer 5x4 pianos, excuse me 5'4" pianos to get a LF (grand) piano in a small space but have issues with sound quality (ability to enlarge really big) and we can't imagine ever having space (physical or acoustical) for 8x10 or ULF pianos (i.e. 7 and 9 foot concert grands), though some, some are truly astonishing musical instruments in the right hands (hands of the piano technician and pianist).

And even though we are in awe of UULF pianos we've seen (played) in galleries (stores) having extra bass strings/notes to bring the usual notes into a sweeter spot in the sound board (Bosendorfer imperial grand) perhaps analogous to those who shoot 20x24, that is not something our art requires. Though we are very comforted and blessed to know it exists, it says something about mankind's quest for perfection or some such.

We also saw once, a 7 foot grand with what was, in its day, the very best automatic player piano mechanism, fully restored. Cost more than the house we were living in 25 years ago. Stunning musically. Not sure what that's analogous to. Maybe the ?mythical? Sinar E?

As to the accounting, in my way of looking at it, sure buy new if that works for you and your accountant and wallet, but cash (in hand) is king. Allows the ultimate in flexibility. Promises of tax gains, your mileage may vary. or put another way "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger."

I really like church organs, the bigger the better, only complaint I have is they work best with many people in the church. So I try to go to organ practice. Kinda like ULF, I need solitude and it's fun to do in a new expansive location or city. I seek churches when travelling for this listening purpose. Maybe I should try to shoot ULF while listening to organ music, but

[John Kasaian]

Best in which ways? Even if you limit yourself to new equipment, there is a lot of different bests.
My off the cuff answer is which ever rattles your creative muses, but if you haven't begun the adventure, that wouldn't make any sense, so
maybe the best format to learn on?
I'd say 4x5 if you want to get an enlarger (that's only because I'm not a hybrid kind of guy) or either 8x10 or 5x7 if you don't want an enlarger.
Come to think of it, new enlargers and enlarging lenses are very expensive, so maybe scratch the 4x5 and go straight to 5x7 and 8x10.