Questions/Advice Regarding 210mm Lenses (4x5)

[Peter Yeti]

It's not a bad idea to stick to a single lens when you step up to a larger format. When I bought my first 4x5" long ago it came with a 210mm because that was the most used lens in commercial photography at the time. So, there is an oversupply of used 210's to choose from.

If you finally want to buy one - and only one - 210 for all-purpose there are a couple of considerations:

- You can't make a small image angle larger but always can use a section from a larger image circle
- You can't make a soft lens sharper but always can make a sharp lens softer

If I could afford only one lens for my 4x5", it would be a 210mm Plasmat like an Apo-Sironar N or Apo-Symmar. I guess, the Fuji and Nikon equivalents are as good but they are not common where I work.

Many people seem to be very fond of Tessar type lenses. I have some Zeiss Tessars and they are excellent for certain things but I don't like them for close-up/portrait and they have limited image angle. They used to be considerably cheaper than Plasmats. I think that's not an issue anymore if you can afford a box of sheet film.

Peter

P.s.: Way more important than the lens is the photographer. Don't worry too much about which lens because it quickly becomes a waste of time and creativity.

[Luis-F-S]

Get a Caltar S-II Multicoated.

+1 There was one for sale recently for $170 that was a steal. May still be available. If I didn't already have one, a 210 G Claron and two 8 1/4" Dagors, I would have bought it!

[Peter Lewin]

FWIW, back in the 80s, Fred Picker recommended the Symmar-S 210 as your first 4x5 lens, and the 120 Super Angulon as the second. I still have my Symmar-S and it is one of the three lenses in my standard kit (the others are a Schneider 80 XL, and a Rodenstock 150). So, given that they are easy to find and relatively inexpensive, my vote goes to the Symmar-S.

[appletree]

Wow. I am stunned. Thank you all so much for the mature and helpful answers. Great community sense and warmness around this forum. Much appreciated.
So I volunteer Wednesday nights with kids at my church and did not expect to come home to 3 pages...sorry for not replying to you all individually.

What I have gathered:

• Love the idea of not worrying too much about my list of kit purchases (for lenses) until after shooting my first lens for a few months.
• Get the hang of the format, shoot and learn, shoot and learn, ie what it means that edges/corners are weak (will have to google this one...or just start shooting when I spring for a lens), or the importance of shutter quality/state, the actual affect of tilt (and learning to look at a photo and have a hint of how tilt/rise/fall/shift/etc effect the image).
• The Schneider Symmar-S seems to be a fan favorite. Or as it seems the Calumet branded Caltar S-II Multicoated (as this seems to be the exact same as the Schneider just manufactured and branded for Calumet...?). I mean is the f-stop and everything the same, it just is labeled as a Caltar lens?
• Something I forgot to mention is using filters. I mean if I want a particular image "softer" I guess I could learn to use the rise/fall/tilt/etc and/or throw on a filter.
• Things like focusing indoors above f/9 being a pain are things I just don't/won't know til I "get my hands dirty" with this format.
• I mean it seems like other than the transition from focus to oof areas will still be soft when wide open, just not have that particular personality trait as the Heliar (for example), yet make up for it on the sharpness and wide range of uses for me as my "first" lens.
• Some suggestions regarding starting with a 210mm lens is interesting and something I had not given much thought to.

Also, meant to mention it in the opening. For portraiture work I rarely expect to be taking head-shots, mostly waist up, posing, chest up, random backgrounds (not backdrops), etc. Not much Karsh influence, respect for him, but not my cup of tea when I mean portrait work. Hence why I landed on 210mm and not 240mm or something longer.

PS: Not sure if frowned upon (so I won't link any), but is it just me or do the Schneider 210mm Symmar-S lenses regularly go for sub $200 on eBay. I am sure there is a classified around here as well when I am ready to keep my eyes peeled for one. I mean I wanted to make sure I am looking at the right model...one sold for $135 in December, clean glass. Is the Calumet one manufactured in more recent years or literally the same thing? Sorry for asking here, I could search this on my own!

[Alan Gales]

Most of the oof which is grand to be sure, in that portrait, was done with tilt. Heliar's are not typically that soft. But the oof areas are nice.

I agree with you, Jim. Heliars are real nice but the tilt really helps make that shot.

I really like the photo so I instantly recognized seeing it before and remembered where to find it. I guess you could say I have a photographic memory. Is that joke lame or what?

[Taija71A]

Wow. I am stunned...

___

Hi Jonathon!

There is no need to be stunned...

Speaking for myself (*And many others), the Forum Members here... Are 'More than Happy' to help YOU -- Because you helped yourself FIRST !!!

Before, seeking any 'Advice'...

1). You took the time to do 'extensive' research.

2). Then, you clearly and concisely explained yourself and put forth very 'articulate' and well thought out questions... As well as also explaining your thoughts and personal preferences -- 'In great Detail'.

Congratulations... 'Job Well Done!'
--
Welcome to the LPFP Johnathon... And we look forward to your forthcoming questions and contributions... In the Days, Weeks and Months to come!
--
Best regards,

-Tim.
_________

[appletree]

I agree with you, Jim. Heliars are real nice but the tilt really helps make that shot.

I really like the photo so I instantly recognized seeing it before and remembered where to find it. I guess you could say I have a photographic memory. Is that joke lame or what?

Hi Alan, yes I mentioned that article in my initial post. Unfortunately, I ramble and it turns into a lot of blocks of text haha. I should have linked the initial article I found it on to give it further credit and it not get buried in my post. I don't plan on taking portraits exclusively with that "personality", but I would like to have the option. As it seems I should be able to do quite a ton with the Symmar-S, filters, and my camera's movements...and lots of experimenting. Something magical in the smoothness and transition. But not in a weird way where it nose-dives from really sharp to really oof. Although perhaps photos that have such a "harsh" transition is more due to the movements than anything...I have much to learn.

Hopefully after being in 35mm and MF for 5+ years now and already developing nearly 90% of all my b/w film (been scanning 20+ rolls for a few days now!), I will be able to make a smooth transition once getting my entire kit together.

Hi Jonathon!

Ah, good points. Thank you for the warm welcome and compliments. I am part of a unique young generation who enjoys vinyl records, old cameras, developing film, all while being too familiar with internet forums. Some more harsh (unfortunately) than others, so I always try to help myself first before "bothering" others. Honestly, most places/people don't mind being "bothered", but answering time old questions that for someone new don't realize get asked often nor take the time to do some legwork. I think it is also a subtle way of showing respect. Not that the former method is showing a lack of, but by being responsible and working for yourself a bit, it is something that can show a sign of respect to those offering help. Communities like this are so fundamental. Unfortunately my generation, often times doesn't seem to think the way I do. But I digress.

Thanks again. Been a lot of information and help here. Good feeling knowing that the 210mm lens will allow me to have that extra money for pup changing tent, film, film holders, lens boards, etc. The 150mm lens though that I "want" (not need), will be a splurge. But to me if it is a staple in my kit for years and years to come worth it. And it is affordable for lenses...don't get me started on my Leica lens...haha, a reason I only own a 50mm lens.

[Taija71A]

Wow. I am stunned...

___

Hi Jonathon!

There is no need to be stunned...

Speaking for myself (*And hopefully many others), the Forum Members here... Are 'More than Happy' to help YOU (as you have already evidenced) -- Because you helped yourself FIRST !!!

Before, seeking any 'Advice'...

1). You took the time to do 'Extensive' research.

2). Then, you put forth very 'Articulate' and well thought out questions and Also explained your thoughts and 'personal preferences' -- In great Detail.

Congratulations... 'Job well Done!'
--
Welcome to the LPFP Johnathon... And we look forward to your forthcoming questions and contributions... In the Days, Weeks and Months to come.
--
Best regards,

-Tim.
__________

[Peter De Smidt]

Don't forget to check KEH, a reputable used dealer. You can regularly get items from them for less than on Ebay, and with KEH you have a clear return policy. Adorama and BHphotovideo, two big NY retailers, have good prices on used stuff as well. I"ve bought from all of them with good results. That's not to say don't buy on Ebay but be careful. I've bought lenses there twice listed as "excellent" that were riddled with fungus. They might've slipped by, but when told about it the sellers didn't want to accept returns...

[appletree]

Of course, do plan on using eBay last, most likely. I would prefer to buy from private sellers/photographers, then check KEH (used before), B&H (always buying stuff from B&H), and then Adorama. If all else "fails" then use eBay. That said since I am in no rush and unsure if I will/should get my 150mm first or 210mm, I can keep waiting until one from classifieds or KEH pops up.

Good points though. eBay, while convenient, can sometimes pose more headaches than it is worth.