Project to Produce a 12" f/3.6 Petzval Gathering Steam

[Gerald Figal]

No worries about rude comments, etc. They don't faze me; I just ignore them.
In any case, there IS some debate about supply/demand/price. Indeed, SOME 12" secondhand Petzvals can be found (with diligent searching) in some markets, but there seems to be a shrinking secondary market relative to demand--at least some folks have expressed frustration at ever finding anything accessible (physically and/or economically) and then envy those that do (which leads to further frustration). And there is always the issue of the condition and performance of anything you do find secondhand. Of course there are well-known high-profile vintage brands that are reliable (Dallmeyer, Voigtländer, Hermagis, etc.), but a comparable 3B in good shape is going to set you back at least $900 in the current market. This project aims to serve that group of potential buyers (shooters, not collectors) who for whatever reason can't get the gear they want and who care more about the final product (photo image) than a lens's provenance (social image).

[IanG]

Gerald, I think you're right there would be a demand for a good modern 12" Petzval, after all Lomography now has it's own new Petzval made in Russia for the DSLR market. I'd contact the makers of repro Wet plate cameras see what they say, I'd guess a few would be interested in either selling or recommending a new 12" Petzval.

Some markets are shrinking, there is far less LF equipment as a whole available on Ebay or through dealers second-hand now compared to a decade ago and prices have been rising as a consequence. Here in the UK a good example would be LF enlargers 10 years ago there would be over 30 De Vere enlargers listed at anyone time moistly 504's with maybe a couple if 5108's now it's more like 3 or 4 listed at any one time.

I was lucky and found a good Petzval at a flea market for next to nothing, it looked terrible so it was a risk, in fact it cleaned up perfectly, but that's luck and patience and a seller who knows what I might like. I haven't seen another similar in the last 5 or 6 years, only smaller/shorter projection Petzvals which were for lantern slide projectors.

So yes there must be a market. just as there's a market for repro Wet plate cameras.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

but a comparable 3B in good shape is going to set you back at least $900 in the current market.

I think you are underestimating the present level by a factor 2!

As the availability of bargain 3B's dries up, most dealing with 3Bs is from user to user - hence the stability of current high prices.


As to re-manufacture of a Dallmeyer Patent 3B - I just don't think the economics will work out. There is all awful lot of precision brass machining and the possibilities of making a lot of scrap metal is present(although it would not as devastating as plastic casting faults). Cooke has recreated a few classic designs - but these have not been cheap for the purchasers or lucrative for Cooke.
Even if the price is kept under what 3B go for, 3Bs will still command a premium.

If intrepid people want to carry on, then I would suggest you make an exact clone (lenses and, perhaps cells) of the 3B (F3.16) so that the many owners of parts/damaged 3bs can buy replacement lenses.
Which would provide more wetplate lenses for the market!

[koh303]

At the moment we are trying to decide whether to Kickstart or do it directly via $100 commitment deposits that would be used toward production once a 50-buy-in goal is met (most folks so far are opting for doing it directly to avoid 10% fees between KS and Amazon). In either case, we will have also have to fund development of a prototype to be tested. Bottom line is that the more buy-ins, the lower the price--although savings on bulk orders of parts tapers off after 100 units.

This is a great project - good luck.
I am a great supporter of kickstarter. More poeple who are not exposed to this forum or your FB page, might be interested, kickstarter is a way to get to them.

[Gerald Figal]

Thanks for the tips and feedback all. There's kind of a weird dynamic among wetplaters that I've been having to tiptoe around because it includes friends of mine and it's totally predictable--that is, the hardcore historical purist types (and there are many among wetplaters by definition) do not at all like this idea (for a number of reasons, I suppose) although they are civil enough not to say that openly and explicitly. Long story short, they like doing it the hard way, including the hunt for that vintage lens, sometimes regardless of price (I've done plenty of that too, so I understand the appeal) To do anything less than that -- like produce a comparable lens available at the click of a mouse -- is not kosher. Some of the secret naysayers have been raising issues of economics and numbers, claiming there are plenty 12" fast Petzvals available if you are simply patient and look. I'm not convinced, but more importantly not all users necessarily have the time and inclination to comb every forum and auction site and estate sale and photo fair. And those lenses that are out there have gotten more expensive, as Steven points out. I've been following prices on almost a daily basis for a few years and I've seen a spike across the board over the past year and that's keeping a lot of latecomers locked out from the good stuff. It was actually the expressed frustration from such a person that got me going on finding some kind of solution rather than simply sitting around complaining about it. I had no plans to do this; I just took the lead on it because I get tired of all talk no action.
Anyway, to kickstart or not to kickstart is a tricky. I've heard pros and cons from both sides and still trying to decide on that question. Frankly, whichever way can best secure the 50 minimum is what I'd go with.
Please continue the conversation if you have other input and advice.

[Tin Can]

I agree with Steven, make an exact copy of the most desired lens.

[Gerald Figal]

For practical reasons we were indeed considering an exact replica (despite the vagaries of glass now versus then) and still might try that -- Mark Ostermann even said he would open up the Eastman collection if the designer wanted to do measurements of vintage lenses. That still might happen.

[IanG]

Dallmeyer's archives are available (& accessible) here in the UK, they should include the full design specifications of their lenses.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

despite the vagaries of glass now versus then

Glass is just glass - just with different refractive indices!


If you are considering the reproduction of the 3B, you will have to consider which of the 2 versions is mostly desirable, easiest to make and use and most reliable - long term.

"Front turn" model

-was occasionally sold in aluminium.
-is without the sleeve.
-does have locking/seizing-up problems (but these might be due to improper long term storage!).

"Rear Notch" adjustment

-user adjustment a PITA (but understandable!). Easier cleaning of rear cells.
-sleeve design completely unnecessary for cameras made since 1870.
- nostalgia.

Having reconstruction experience on 4 3B's I would suggest the following:

1. Do not use the "brass turn over" system to mount the front achromat. Screw-in threads, which Ross, Darlot etc. used on their big portrait Petzvals) is far better in the long run.
2. Make a mechanical system to increase/reduce the distance between the front and rear cellls. Darlot was onto something very interesting when he made the Universal which allows for changing this distance.
One of my efforts with a 3B was making a new barrel which didn't end up with the "correct" mm distance and a Wetplater - in a direct comparison with a normal 3B - thought it was better!

[koh303]

Anyway, to kickstart or not to kickstart is a tricky. I've heard pros and cons from both sides and still trying to decide on that question. Frankly, whichever way can best secure the 50 minimum is what I'd go with.
Please continue the conversation if you have other input and advice.

Well, finding out if your FB platform will get you 50 orders is simple - make a post with a deadline and see what happens. If it does not work - run a kickstarter, urging all those who signed up on FB to try again. Raise the price, or min number of orders needed to match the cost, if needed.