Reversal Film Scanning and loss of highlight detail

[Timothy Blomquist]

In the past 25 years + I have printed my 4x5 and 8x10 reversal film on Ilfochrome Classic (Cibachrome), and had a good feel for my shooting exposures to maintain the lighter highlight areas. In Zone system language, my lightest areas would be no more than Zone VII 1/2. When printing with Ilfochrome, I would still have detail in these areas. Now since I am having to go to high resolution scans of my reversal film, what can I expect for detail in these areas in a final print (say on aluminum)? Am I going to have to alter my shooting exposures to no more than Zone VI 1/2-VII for the light areas? You can tell I haven't kept up with the latest printing technologies.

[Lenny Eiger]

If you are truly getting high resolution scans... as in a drum scanner, and you are using an scanner operator that knows what he/she is doing, then you should have any amount of highlight detail you want.

These kinds of scanners don't "clip" anything. They get every bit of detail in the film. Once you are in Photoshop, you should have much better control on where you place these highlights in your print.

At minimum, there should be no loss. Some scanner operators suggest they get better results from negatives that are less dense, however I would disagree, I find them exceedingly capable. I have a sneaking suspicion this might be scanner, or scanner software dependent, but really haven't researched it enough to say anything definitive.

Suffice it to say, if you've been printing on Cibachrome... you will get everything you are used to and more.

Lenny

[gregmo]

It might not be a bad idea to have Lenny scan at least one of your images to judge your other scans against. In full disclosure, Lenny does all of my LF scanning.

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Recently I did 30 16-bit scans of 4x5" transparencies (Astia 100F, some Astia 100 and some Provia 100F) on my "silly little" Scanmate 3000 with a ColorQuartet 5.3.1. All the transparencies were very carefully metered by the photographer, and it was myself who also developed all sheets in a Jobo 3010. The exhibition was held earlier this month. The prints were really good and all detail in highlights was preserved. So while this may not answer your question, as the prints were on matte Hahnemühle paper instead of aluminum, the type of scanner and the care of its operator are the key.

[Drew Wiley]

Hard to say. You aren't telling us exactly how you printed on Ciba (masking options etc), though you obviously had a good feel for where typical chrome film tend to
top out, and you aren't saying exactly how you intend to print on aluminum or why (some methods are going to be malleable than others). The scanning part of it would seem to be one of the easier variables to peg down if it's competently done to begin with.

[Timothy Blomquist]

Drew, I rarely did any kind of contrast masking when working with Ciba, or for that matter any other kind of manipulation. I tried to do all the work with the camera, and I either was successful or not with the finished transparency. Some I knew would never look good when printed on Cibachrome. When printing I have used a 1940's Kodak 8x10 I turned into an enlarger with homemade light boxes. For my negative B&W film I used my own created fluorescent tube cold head. I can only enlarge up to 16x20 due to the size of my darkroom. Bigger than that I would send off to commercial printing houses.

On a side note, for years I used Agfa Brovira and Portriga Rapid for enlarging my 4x5 and 8x10 black & white negative film. I am somewhat of a photographic dinosaur. Someday I may even try to duplicate Cyanotypes which were done by my grandfather in the late 1890's and early 1900's. I have a bunch of those in my collection.

[Drew Wiley]

OK. I get it. In that case you had to select from chromes of limited contrast range or pull-process them. But even Ciba color could never be corrected that way. I never have encountered a chrome I couldn't print well on Ciba, but there sure were a lot of tricks and fancy gear needed to do it. If you like that distinct Ciba look your scans can be output by laser printers onto Fuji Supergloss. The other common option is obviously inkjet. But a proficient scan operator will likely need to know which path you intend to take first, so the scan can be optimized for the final output. There's no shame in being a dinosaur, and ahhhh, that Portriga was lovely stuff, though now it's
possible to achieve a similar look with Ilford MGWT if properly toned. I've never attempted cyanotype, but do have many lovely ones in my collection.

[Timothy Blomquist]

What got me thinking about printing on a metal medium like aluminum, was some super high gloss, highly saturated color images I saw in a gallery in Durango, Colorado, or in the Tom Till Gallery in Moab, Utah. The prints I saw reminded me of Cibachrome. Who knows what kind of archivability you get with prints on aluminum? It was always said that high silver content of the Cibachrome print would maintain color stability for hundreds of years.

[bob carnie]

I do not think that Ciba had paticularly high silver content , rather cibachrome utilized Azo dyes and was a bleach out process, ie the dyes were in the paper vs RA4 where the dye couples to the silver. Also in light Cibachromes do not exhibit much more stability than RA4 prints.. apparently they are permanent in dark storage though.

What got me thinking about printing on a metal medium like aluminum, was some super high gloss, highly saturated color images I saw in a gallery in Durango, Colorado, or in the Tom Till Gallery in Moab, Utah. The prints I saw reminded me of Cibachrome. Who knows what kind of archivability you get with prints on aluminum? It was always said that high silver content of the Cibachrome print would maintain color stability for hundreds of years.

[Timothy Blomquist]

Bob, I think the Cibachrome process utilized what they called "Silver Bleach Dyes". I agree that the stability of the image would degrade in direct light or high humidity, but I would like to know what what that would be in years. Probably longer than my lifetime, or several lifetimes. My "fine art" prints are kept in an acid free, dark environment anyway.