Do we still need Black and White FIlm???

[Jim Andrada]

OK, OK, OK, before everybody jumps on me I admit it - I have a freezer stuffed with Tri-X, Delta 100, Acros, TMY-400, even 50 sheets of 5 x 7 Efke 25. So I'm not really going to give it up. Each film has a character of its own.

But recently I've been using a lot of Ektar 100 and I find it quite impressive indeed. I've pretty much switched to it for 90% of my MF work, even if the end product is going to be B&W. I find the combination of sharpness, grainless-ness and scan-ability to be hard to beat, particularly for my "sub-mini" Mamiya 645, and converting to B&W in Photoshop gives me a lot of control. I've even signed up for Keith Canham's 5 x 7 order.

It took a few rolls to warm up to it, but now I absolutely love the stuff. (And C-41 is almost easier to process than B&W here in Tucson where the cold water can get close to 90 this time of year.) Yes, it's pricier, but I like the flexibility of not having to worry about loading B&W or color before I head out, or juggling film backs, and at the slow rate I burn through film the price isn't a huge issue.

Anyhow, I find it to be pretty good for most everything.

Would love to hear other (polite!) opinions. And I promise to go out and shoot some Acros tomorrow.

Just FYI this is approximately a half frame crop from a 6 x 4.5 neg

Dark Clouds by Kirigakuresaizoh, on Flickr

[jp]

It is indeed an excellent color film. I'd call it a e6 killer rather than a B&W killer.

For B&W I want a film I can print in the darkroom. For a silver or alt process output. Yes, I can and do scan, but I still want a negative I can print the old fashioned ways. It appeals to me to have a negative not comprised solely of dyes as well.

[Jim Andrada]

If I were still doing wet prints I'd agree with you. But having drunk the inkjet Kool-Aid (and not having a darkroom anymore, nor a place to build one) everything is now scanned and printed on an Epson 4880. I've been scanning on an Epson 750, but will be upgrading to a Nikon Coolscan 8k in a few weeks for the "little stuff". I'd go for a drum scanner if I had the space for it, but for now I don't. I'll be taking a couple of 5 x 7 negs to Lenny Eiger's place in a couple of weeks and no doubt he'll get me all fired up to MAKE a place for a Howtek or something. Just have to convince my wife that we never have enough folks over to really NEED half of our dining table. And having one on top of her Grand piano would be really attractive.

Yeah, sure!!!

[Andrew O'Neill]

I print using alt processes, so it's B/W 8x10 film for me.

[ic-racer]

The question is 'do we still need color film.' Most color is done with digital. B&W is its own entity, it uses the principle of light and dark and shadowing to form an image and has nothing to do with digital.
Printing color negative film on the available B&W papers does not work because the paper is not panchromatic. Panchromatic B&W printing paper went out of production long ago.

[Jim Andrada]

Well, if I could afford an 80mp digital back I'd probably be doing digital as well. Although I'd be just as likely to get a monochrome back and do B&W digitally. No Bayer layer, etc. And I'll make a terrible admission - I DO shot digital on an original Canon 5D.

Re the banding - yep, I see it. I think the Coolscan will do a better job, but won't really know for a couple of weeks until I get it home. I think the Epson just isn't up to scanning 6 x 4.5. Maybe marginal for 6 x 7. 4 x 5 and up - OK. Howtek would be better no doubt. BUT I have the color negs and technology has made it a lot less expensive to print them than it used to be.

I got my (first) 5 x 7 camera in 1970. And I shot a lot of color when it was (relatively) REALLY expensive. Buying the film and having it processed was bad enough, but having it printed was financially out of the question. So I had a choice. Give up color or print it myself. So I learned how to do it. I can say for sure that I make a better print from LF color negs with scanner and inkjet than I did with wet process 40 years ago. I think I'm better off than I'd be if I HADN'T shot color.

But back to the main topic - the real world, like it or not, is in color. That's a basic truth. So if you want a B&W print to fit your vision, you have to apply some transform to get from the color domain to the B&W domain. The question is. where do you apply the transform? In camera, accepting some particular B&W film's characteristics, or in post process (and of course no color film is all that accurate in representing the real world color.)

But in the end, I think the question isn't really how accurately either B&W or Color film captures reality, as much as it is about how you get from the real world to your monochrome vision. And lately I have the feeling that for some large percentage of what I do, working from an Ektar neg is easier.

[Jim Jones]

. . . But back to the main topic - the real world, like it or not, is in color. . . .

Most people also see the real World in 3-D, and the tonal range is often greater than any print from film. Film interprets a subject, not presents it exactly as it is. Our eyes and mind reinterpret the image, either to visualize the subject somewhat as it actually was or to appreciate qualities in the subject as emphasized by the photographer. Sometimes B&W more than color film presents a subject in a manner more appropriate to the further processing by eyes and minds. Infrared film and Tech Pan processed for high contrast were two examples that. Reality is merely reality. Imagery can be more.

[Jim Andrada]

By the way - re the banding again - I'm not all that sure that some of the problem isn't coming from the lab. Is it really scanner banding, or is it agitation, or...? I get it on B&W as well. And sometimes it runs diagonally!!! Bigger film probably has it as well, it just may be harder to see with a smaller degree of enlargement.

[Jim Andrada]

"Troll?" Who?

[paulr]

The question is 'do we still need color film.' Most color is done with digital.

Agreed. I can't imagine going back to color film from digital. But if I do another black and white project I'll at least consider film. BW film has some unique strengths.