Are museums collecting modern landscapers?

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah.. all I was suggesting is that his kind of prints work well when grouped together. I don't even like my own C prints in the same room as Cibas, for example,
unless its Fuji Supergloss. With Lightjet or whatever, you can successfully span both ends of the spectrum, not necessarily with inkjet. I really love inkjet when
it comes to old school amateurish color neg films, esp small format. But let me reiterate that I like Burtynsky's personal style of composition. It's rather unique at
this stage of the game. I'm fine with his subject matter too. But when it comes to weeds, well, we true hillbillies might have cultivated that particular aesthetic a
bit better, even in C prints... Doubt many other people would even wish to crawl thru them with an 8x10 ...

[jp]

Early Burtynsky:

Those look a bit Eliot Porter inspired.

As for the subject matter of "Garbage", if you're going to look at it that way, it's a useful and relevant re-hash of the theme Stieglitz championed (perhaps inspired by Coburn) with his cloud equivalents, where the subject matter was secondary to the artistic qualities, showing you don't need a beautiful subject to make a beautiful photograph. Which is a nice antidote to celebrity and postcard subjects.

[Drew Wiley]

Duuuh.... tell me something I haven't already known for the past fifty years. But "Garbage" is just my synomym for what got called "Environmental Photography".
You get somebody like Rbt Ketchum, who basically tried to copy some of those Eliot Porter things, or even postcard themes, but made sure there some human detritus was conspicuously in the foreground, and suddenly it's supposed to be artistically or socially relevant, just because of that?? That ploy got worn to death in the 70's.

[paulr]

... but made sure there some human detritus was conspicuously in the foreground, and suddenly it's supposed to be artistically or socially relevant, just because of that??

Have you considered that this is just what most of our world looks like? You have to go to exceptional places to see a landscape that shows no obvious signs of development, pollution, industry, or commerce. I could easily argue that pictures of unspoiled nature are more of a contrivance, or a "ploy" than the ones you're trying to marginalize.

Ansel admitted to hacking down tree branches and going wandering far out of the way of powerlines to get the views he wanted. I don't see how this is not a ploy, while simply including the power lines is.

[Drew Wiley]

So this is all about "A" versus "B" stereotypes, Paul? Like some multiple choice test - mark one of the following four boxes, based on your preference, like you can't think or see do do anything by yourself? But guess I'll have to cancel my upcoming vacation, where I was planning on walking for two weeks with only 50/50 odds of even encountering anyone else, much less some trash heap, just like I've done many times before. You obviously have less than zero notion of what kinds of things I actually have photographed, but I didn't do any of it because of some market forecast consciously catering to either the ceramic chipmunk crowd or the academic set. Do you actually believe that everyone who carries a big camera around outdoors is therefore some kind of AA clone? or just some postcard type?

[paulr]

I didn't introduce a stereotype, you did.

I'm suggesting that it's actually easier to make the opposite case.

[Drew Wiley]

Get in a plane and fly across the country. Yeah, it's pretty shocking how, once one hits the Rocky Mtn front at Devner (flying east) 95% of the landscape shows
a human footprint. Pretty much all plowed, planted, cut, whatever. But the rest of the country - it's urbanization and even suburbanization that's the exception.
Flying over Nevada, sure there are tiny little squiggles of dirt mining roads etc everywhere. But on foot they're pretty far apart, and driving them isn't exactly an
Interstate experience. Even here in Calif, where we do have big cities, much of the Coast Range is less inhabited than the Mojave Desert. And yeah, in the mtns
you do have places with a lot of visitors, like Yosemite Valley or Lk Tahoe. But there are places even within the boundaries of Yosemite Natl Park itself where you
could walk for days on end without encountering anyone else, where even official trails don't go. I grew up right next to a major canyon in the Sierras where I only met one other person - an old Indian - who had ever explored it, that is, prior to me and my buddies, and then later, a few whitewater enthusiasts. I've been in entire mountain basins numerous times where people have unquestionably been, but so rarely that not even a campfire circle, or tree blaze, or trail duck, or footpath was visible anywhere. So don't try to tell me what is fair game and what is not. I don't go such places necessarily to get postcardy or wilderness type pictures. Sometimes I don't even take a single picture, despite the incredible scenery. I go such places for personal reasons and not with a mercantile mentality. I've come back from long trips carrying an 85 lb pack of view camera gear, with maybe one or two shots that could have been taken in the nearest cow pasture. Why? Because the composition appealed to me, not cause it would look good in some coffee table book or fit some calendar stereotype.

[marfa boomboom tx]

should you wish to test Ed B's printing skill with your vision...

http://www.torontoimageworks.com

pull that wallet out of your weed skimmers...

[paulr]

urbanization and suburbanization may be the exception from the standpoint of square miles. But if that's your criterion, then land itself is the exception!

Look at what most people in this country are surrounded by at home, at work, while commuting, while relaxing. It's an urban or suburban environment. By most, I don't mean 51%. Consider that the New York metropolitan area is more populous than all but two other states. 3.75 times the population of Colorado. 6 times the population of Utah. 19 times the population of Montana. 34 times the population of Wyoming.

Most Americans spend virtually all their time in a built or highly-built environment. And it's even more the case in Europe, which is almost entirely deforested. There is no European Wyoming. If you spend time surrounded by forest or desert or mountain, you are the exception. Even if you spend your time surrounded by cultivated plains, you are the exception.

Nothing wrong with that. I personally escape to the mountains whenever I have the chance. But it's not my everyday reality, just as it isn't for most of us. If photographers are trying to make sense of what they see day in and day out ... or just trying to work with the landscape that's available to them ... then of course they'll show us a lot of city and suburb. And these days it will include a lot of wrecked city and suburb.

[Drew Wiley]

Mr Boombox, why on earth would I want to pay someone else to print my work? Then it wouldn't be my print, not even my work, as far as I'm concerned. Besides,
I already have a fully equipped personal color lab. And back to Paul.... well, I do count myself lucky to be living in an urban area with more public open space
than any other comparable place in the country. I am within three blocks of a seven thousand acre park, within minutes of driving to so many others that I haven't
even visited half of them. New ones are opening up soon. Don't compare these to city parks. I was on a ridgetop walk a few weeks ago where I didn't see another person the entire day. Then I finished off the day at on old port on the river where you can photograph rust and peeling paint forever if you want to. Just minutes from my house. Plus we have several nearby state parks, plus a sizable National Seashore. Then the Sierra is only about three hours away, so a fairly comfortable drive after traffic dies down at night. This part of the state is very different from LA. And if we squabble about things like taxes just like everyone else, at least the vast majority of people here will fork out a little both to protect and expand our public land trusts, trails, etc. Even at very popular areas like Pt Reyes or
Mt Diablo it's very easy to find solitude. Ninety percent of the people visit only ten percent of the places. The most crowded spot anywhere is Muir Woods. There
will be a dozen tour buses parked there at any given time, plus two hundred cars. Just cross the creek and walk the trail the opposite direction. You'll probably see two or three people the whole day, and it will be lovely. Probably the majority of 8x10 shots I took this year showed some kind of human imprint, even if it was only old roads, fences, and cattle. I go for what strikes my eye, regardless. Done far more than my fair share of wrecks and ruins or whatever, hundred of prints.
But to think that one has to work hard to find subject matter totally void of apparent human inflence is to be very naive about a lot of the West.