Yellowish base after selenium toning

[jose angel]

Thanks Ian. I have been always thinking about the convenience of a two bath fixing, I have used it a couple times in the past, so I`ll start with the habit right now.

[Doremus Scudder]

It's residual silver left in the paper causing the staining, it's a mix of silver/thiousulphite complexes that aren't fully soluble. Fixing is a complex sequence of equilibrium reactions and if the fixing bath is part used some of these complexes form weak bonds with the cellulose in the fibre based paper so won't wash out, with selenium toning you get a yellow stain.

Simplest solution is to use two bath fixing, it actually works out being more economic, the fresher fresh fixer in the second bath with a low silver level completes the equilibrium processes and leaves no insoluble silver/thiosulphate complexes.

It's highly unlikely you'll remove the stain now.

Ian

Ian has your answer.

I'll add that I use Ilford Rapid Fix or Hypam at the 1+9 dilution. I transfer prints directly from the second fixing bath to the toner without any staining. No intermediate rinse means a large savings in time. Two-bath fixation is much more efficient and secure than single bath.

There is absolutely no benefit to using your fixer at the stronger 1+4 dilution and then fixing for two minutes. It is simply wasteful. The whole point of the Ilford recommendation to use "film-strength" fixer for fiber-base prints is to reduce fixing times to one minute, which prevents the fixer from soaking fully into the paper base thus reducing washing time and efficiency. At two minutes you are simply defeating the purpose; the paper base is saturated and longer wash times are required.

FWIW, many, including me, are skeptical of the Ilford fixing sequence; it was tested only on Ilford products and reduces the fixer capacity to just a few prints if you want optimum permanence. A two-bath method with fixer diluted 1+9 uses the same amount of fixer and has a much greater (3x or more!) capacity. It does require longer wash times, but you need these anyway with your two-minute fixing time.

And, do replenish, filter and reuse your selenium toner! Just add a bit of stock when the toning times get too long. Use coffee filters before and after use. You will never have to discard expensive and dangerous selenium again.

Best,

Doremus

[hmf]

I have had this same problem when fixing with an older,, though sealed, bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix that I got as a part of a larger purchase. I always use a two bath fix. The problem went away when I use hypo as the second bath.

[Jim Noel]

It's residual silver left in the paper causing the staining, it's a mix of silver/thiousulphite complexes that aren't fully soluble. Fixing is a complex sequence of equilibrium reactions and if the fixing bath is part used some of these complexes form weak bonds with the cellulose in the fibre based paper so won't wash out, with selenium toning you get a yellow stain.

Simplest solution is to use two bath fixing, it actually works out being more economic, the fresher fresh fixer in the second bath with a low silver level completes the equilibrium processes and leaves no insoluble silver/thiosulphate complexes.

It's highly unlikely you'll remove the stain now.

Ian

By all means two fixing baths and either tone directly after fixing, or after a complete washing cycle. Have you aver tested your prints for residual thiosulfate after your wash cycle? If not, you might learn something by doing so.

[ROL]

I transfer prints directly from the second fixing bath to the toner without any staining. No intermediate rinse means a large savings in time. Two-bath fixation is much more efficient and secure than single bath.

I do much the same with a few variants. Since I always tone at the end of a printing session, I go from holding water bath, after single rapid fix (TF4) – then a final thorough washing. I don't bother toning prints that don't make through the fix to fine art status – I feed them to my ravenous rubbish can. It is impossible for me to use two fixes for mural prints, even in my 20' sink. I figure it ultimately saves time and handling difficulties to incorporate toning into the single session workflow. I "know" right away whether fixing is sufficient. Never any problems with inadequate fixation after 15 years of my present workflow, +35 in total, even with GSPs receiving direct partial seasonal sun.

[mike rosenlof]

if you read the ingredients of KRST, (bottle? or maybe MSDS) you'll see that amonium thiosulfate (rapid fixer) is one of the components. Probably no need to wash all of the fixer out before toning. You do want the prints to be completely fixed.

[ROL]

if you read the ingredients of KRST, (bottle? or maybe MSDS) you'll see that amonium thiosulfate (rapid fixer) is one of the components. Probably no need to wash all of the fixer out before toning. You do want the prints to be completely fixed.

Since that follows my post without quote, I assume that was intended for me, not Jose. To clarify, I tone after holding bath, then wash. What you want, ideally, is complete fixation followed by complete removal of hypo.

[matthew blais]

I also use a fresh fix/hypo then straight into SE toner...this is my second fix after washing thoroughly

[jose angel]

Thank you all very much for your help.

Doremus, I get your point, I`ll follow your procedure. Anyway, I think I was wrong, the solution I used was 1+9 not 1+4 (I use to follow the instructions).
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if you read the ingredients of KRST, (bottle? or maybe MSDS) you'll see that amonium thiosulfate (rapid fixer) is one of the components. Probably no need to wash all of the fixer out before toning. You do want the prints to be completely fixed.

It`s true. So I`d think an improper wash is not the problem. Maybe an improper fix.
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I have had this same problem when fixing with an older, though sealed, bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix that I got as a part of a larger purchase. I always use a two bath fix. The problem went away when I use hypo as the second bath.

Well, as mentioned, I don`t control the number of sheets I put on the fixer solution but I`d say they were not enough to be replaced. And it was the very first time I buy this fixer, I don`t know how old it could be (it could have been on the store shelve for years!).
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Have you aver tested your prints for residual thiosulfate after your wash cycle? If not, you might learn something by doing so.

Jim, I`ll look how to do it. Thanks.

FWIW, I finally gave to one of the yellowish prints an "extra treatment"; I placed it directly (no prewet) into a fresh hypo clearing tray for 15 minutes, with continuous agitation, then into the NOVA slot washer for one hour.
The yellowish cast has partially gone, it is now in a middle point between the pure white of the untoned sample and the yellow from the toned one. Maybe a bit closer to the clear one, but still with a very slight grey cast. From an aesthetic point of view, the print is "usable", although not perfect. From an "archival" point of view, I don`t know.

As I still have the other yellow one, I don`t know if it makes too much sense, but I`m planning to re-fix it right now, then to the hypo tray, ending with the same one hour wash. I`ll tell you the results.

[jose angel]

Update; the second yellowish print has been processed as mentioned above, with the very same results as the first one. Still to complete drying, but it looks also slightly clearer, not as yellow, but still not white.