"For Sale" Forum available for new members

[Kirk Gittings]

We appreciate the comments and opinions on the issue. However, there are good reasons that we block access to both the FS/WTB sub-forum and member profiles for the first 30 days for new members. Those reasons are a bit more complicated than they might appear on the surface, though.

As has been noted, the primary purpose of this forum is to facilitate discussion of LF topics among the LF community, and to do so within a non-commercial environment. The LFPF is a free resource, run by volunteers on system and network resources that are donated to us. As such, we also have to operate within the confines of the standard features of the vBulletin software we use for the forum.

The FS/WTB sub-forum, intended for the use of regular forum participants, is the one compromise we make to maintaining the non-commercial environment. For it to work, however, there needs to be a certain level of trust between buyers and sellers. The 30-day wait allows participants to get a sense of a person they might be dealing with through that person's other posts. This is particularly important since the vBulletin software is designed for discussions, not point-of-sale purposes, and doesn't include features that would allow for sales-oriented enforcement or redress mechanisms. Thus, our use of the discussion software for sales purposes among members is, at best, a kludge. This is also the reason that the FS/WTB section must remain as an "at-your-own risk" feature. The risks, however, would be far greater without the 30-day wait period, essentially rendering the FS/WTB feature useless if it were more "open". Buying and selling here is attractive because there are no fees involved. Imagine the volume of questionable or nefarious for-sale posts if the feature was open to anyone who could get past the registration restrictions.

Also, the access-control features of the software are fairly limited. By creative use of the tiered membership features, we can completely block access to a sub-forum or feature, or grant full access. This all-or-nothing aspect of the software is also why new members don't have access to their own profiles within the first 30 days. Establishing finer-grained controls, however, would generally require custom coding modifications to the software - something we simply don't have the resources to do or maintain. Custom coding often conflicts with updates and bug fixes from vBulletin, so modifications often have to be re-coded when upgrades are installed, further complicating the issue of available "staff" resources.

So, while the 30-day wait may seem overly-restrictive, or even elitist, to some, it is an essential part of our overall administrative design to keep the forum running reasonably well, given the compromise of allowing any sales at all.

Ralph, this is expressed very well.

[Ralph Barker]

Thanks, Kirk.

[Trevor Whitaker]

Also, the access-control features of the software are fairly limited. By creative use of the tiered membership features, we can completely block access to a sub-forum or feature, or grant full access. This all-or-nothing aspect of the software is also why new members don't have access to their own profiles within the first 30 days. Establishing finer-grained controls, however, would generally require custom coding modifications to the software - something we simply don't have the resources to do or maintain. Custom coding often conflicts with updates and bug fixes from vBulletin, so modifications often have to be re-coded when upgrades are installed, further complicating the issue of available "staff" resources.

I want to point out that I completely agree with the other reasons you stated and think having a waiting period for the for sale forum is a good thing, but this part is just not true.

vBulletin has access controls within each forum (and subforum). Using them you can set whether a user group can see the forum and also whether they can post new threads or post replies. Setting both options to off makes the forum read only to members of that group. These options are exactly how the News forum is configured so that normal users can post replies but not new threads. It's all built in to vBulletin and does not require any custom coding, nor does it require any creative usage of the software.

I've been involved in running a number of large (non-photography related) boards on vBulletin and nearly all of them used a combination of these settings to allow access to forums, including multi-tiered access to subforums that gave users read only access with one specific post count and then increased to each subsequent permission level (reply to posts and post new threads) as their count increased and their group membership changed. Group levels can be set to change automatically using all kinds of options in the promotions settings in the admin control panel.

[Ralph Barker]

Thanks for your comments, Trevor. I don't handle the software configuration details (that is handled by Tom Westbrook), but yes, I probably "over-spoke" with respect to be the built-in access controls. Providing read-only access to the FS/WTB section, however, would defeat the concept behind the 30-day waiting period, as explained above. We have enough of a problem now with respect to new members trying to circumvent the waiting period, some out of ignorance (they failed to read the Guidelines that they certified that they had read when they joined) and some out of feigned ignorance.

[Kirk Gittings]

Yes and basing it on post count will just encourage inane posts.

[Ginette]

Yes and basing it on post count will just encourage inane posts.

Yes between 1 month waiting period and post count, I prefer the 1 month waiting.

I want to point out that I completely agree with the other reasons you stated and think having a waiting period for the for sale forum is a good thing, but this part is just not true.

vBulletin has access controls within each forum (and subforum). Using them you can set whether a user group can see the forum and also whether they can post new threads or post replies. Setting both options to off makes the forum read only to members of that group. These options are exactly how the News forum is configured so that normal users can post replies but not new threads. It's all built in to vBulletin and does not require any custom coding, nor does it require any creative usage of the software.

I've been involved in running a number of large (non-photography related) boards on vBulletin and nearly all of them used a combination of these settings to allow access to forums, including multi-tiered access to subforums that gave users read only access with one specific post count and then increased to each subsequent permission level (reply to posts and post new threads) as their count increased and their group membership changed. Group levels can be set to change automatically using all kinds of options in the promotions settings in the admin control panel.

Thanks for your comments, Trevor. I don't handle the software configuration details (that is handled by Tom Westbrook), but yes, I probably "over-spoke" with respect to be the built-in access controls. Providing read-only access to the FS/WTB section, however, would defeat the concept behind the 30-day waiting period, as explained above. We have enough of a problem now with respect to new members trying to circumvent the waiting period, some out of ignorance (they failed to read the Guidelines that they certified that they had read when they joined) and some out of feigned ignorance.

Yes this is what I think too but I was not shure about VBulletin controls as I had an IP. Board forum in the past (now closed).

As my forum is now closed, I don't remember exactly but I think it could be easy to make visible the title and description of the "For sale" section without giving the access to it for 1 month. I think new members will see clearly that the forum exist and the 1 month waiting period. I think it can encourage new members to stay active members till that period. Unless people register, take a rapid look and don't come back.
So even the new members see the forum description but when they try to access they have the error message that they cannot read content. People don't read FAQ and Guidelines but will see clearly the error message!

My first suggestion was to give the permission to new members to see the content but not post for 1 month but if the consensus of most members is to not give the permission to Read and Post, the forum description will be a good compromise.





Second suggestion, the "Buyer-Seller Advisories" should not be seen by Guests as actually, unless you wish to make emphasing on outside forum bad sellers. Most posts are related to transactions between members so it should be reserved to members only.

[NancyP]

Here's my experience as a newbie:
I too wanted to dive in and buy something, and I also spent a little time looking at "4 x 5 camera" on eBay. It became apparent that this was not like a beginner buying a dSLR and kit lens, frankly any recent camera has very similar characteristics and will do for the initial learning period. I became confused - very confused - at all the options, and started educating myself via the very helpful LFP Front Page, which certainly has enough to keep a newbie busy for 30+ days. I also started asking questions and searching old posts, and have gotten some very helpful pointers, not least of which is that there are many contradictory but firmly held opinions (re: lens, metering, developing method, film / developer combo, etc) from many people who get results with their favorite (fill in the blank). This makes me think: just pick one camera, lens, film, developer, and try it. I can try something else if I am not happy with the first choices. The nature of LF seems to be a level of technical experimentation that is a little foreign to the 135 roll film shooter.

So, I think that the 30 day reality check is fine, it gave me time to study up and to look at images too.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your collective patience with newcomers to LF!

[Leigh]

This makes me think: just pick one camera, lens, film, developer, and try it. I can try something else if I am not happy with the first choices.

Absolutely right. Everybody uses a method that works best for them.
This depends on a whole pile of factors that involve every aspect of the process.

It's unlikely that any two folks will do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way
from subject selection to hanging the final print.

People tend to be very defensive of their particular choices because
they've put a lot of effort into making them.

- Leigh

[BuffaloJohn]

StoneNYC - another reason why I stick to humans vs. boards - people like you with one line commentary and useless to others.

[pdmoylan]

Here's my experience as a newbie:
I too wanted to dive in and buy something, and I also spent a little time looking at "4 x 5 camera" on eBay. It became apparent that this was not like a beginner buying a dSLR and kit lens, frankly any recent camera has very similar characteristics and will do for the initial learning period. I became confused - very confused - at all the options, and started educating myself via the very helpful LFP Front Page, which certainly has enough to keep a newbie busy for 30+ days. I also started asking questions and searching old posts, and have gotten some very helpful pointers, not least of which is that there are many contradictory but firmly held opinions (re: lens, metering, developing method, film / developer combo, etc) from many people who get results with their favorite (fill in the blank). This makes me think: just pick one camera, lens, film, developer, and try it. I can try something else if I am not happy with the first choices. The nature of LF seems to be a level of technical experimentation that is a little foreign to the 135 roll film shooter.

So, I think that the 30 day reality check is fine, it gave me time to study up and to look at images too.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your collective patience with newcomers to LF!

Well said Nancy.

The real value in this forum is the posted images and what it took to get them. Young adaptors have at their fingertips others' experiments, successes and failures, and should be able to find orientation readily. The 30 day waiting period, as Nancy points out, allows them a chance to find focus, not simply on the equipment and technical side, but on what it is they want to accomplish. For those new to LF, the 30 day period, though intended for other reasons, should be a considered a period of self-examination. The shared visual experience is second to none and I encourage every newcomer to carefully look through the image banks and identify with one of more photographer's work/iamges. It inspires at times but more importantly gives guidance.

Frankly, in many ways, and to reduce anxiety, it is far better to buy from a known commercial source than from forum members. Yet many have had success.

PDM