Alt-Process Prints from Digital Negatives or Positives

[bob carnie]

I am printing Yellow, Magenta and Cyan overtop palladium -

I am seeing the problem in the mag and cyan layer sometimes

I just finished a set - will post one with very obvious problems.

Bob,

I don't print multicolor gum, only b&w at the moment, but I presume that you are printing the layers in a dark-to-light pigment sequence?

How many layers in do you go with the gum? I have found that most prints can handle about 2-3 layers before the print starts to stain when using gelatin 2.5% with F-A EW. Any more than that, and the print needs to be re-sized.

Is the problem layer the first one, but starts flaking in subsequent washes for other colors?


---Michael

[bob carnie]

Image courtesy Monica Glitz

Here is an example of the round circle issues that I was showing before.. last batch of images this is the only one showing this.. the yellow circles were very evident
in the Yellow wash out..

Palladium first, no PVA- Yellow first, Magenta second, Cyan third.

Anyone else getting these.

Theory's of what may be happening.

1 . something is preventing the magenta and cyan pigment from laying down- Why in circles and random.

2. is this possible water splashes that have gotten on the paper- thus explaining the circular pattern and subsequent lack of adhesion.

3. is this just heavy deposits of pigmented gum that once in the water forms and unless I break up the circular pattern early they do not go away.

any thoughts would be appreciated.

Bob

[Erik Larsen]

Image courtesy Monica Glitz

Here is an example of the round circle issues that I was showing before.. last batch of images this is the only one showing this.. the yellow circles were very evident
in the Yellow wash out..

Palladium first, no PVA- Yellow first, Magenta second, Cyan third.

Anyone else getting these.

Theory's of what may be happening.

1 . something is preventing the magenta and cyan pigment from laying down- Why in circles and random.

2. is this possible water splashes that have gotten on the paper- thus explaining the circular pattern and subsequent lack of adhesion.

3. is this just heavy deposits of pigmented gum that once in the water forms and unless I break up the circular pattern early they do not go away.

any thoughts would be appreciated.

Bob

Hi Bob, odd problem you have there. Do you notice the cyan and magenta layers being resisted in those yellow areas when you coat them? You said no size on these as well? Have you tried a different paper just to rule it out? I can only think it would be a sizing problem to stain that bad, but I don't know why the others wouldn't stain in those spots as well. Perhaps the yellow is overexposed a bit as well. It sure does look like water spots though. Have you tried developing face down and let gravity work on the pigments? Wish I could be more help, I've just never seen this happen before.

[Erik Larsen]

One other thought, they almost look like fisheyes as well. Is your yellow gum mix a little watered down compared to the other colors? Too much yellow pigment in relation to gum?

[Michael Mutmansky]

I was going to ask about the coating as well... If there is any sign of coating irregularities in the gum when you are spreading the mix, it will be apparent on the print after washout.

I don't think he can develop face down because of the aluminum unless he sets up some kind of rack to hold the sheet off the bottom.

Are you sure you are getting perfect adhesion of the paper to the aluminum? It sort-of looks like there are possible bubbles of air trapped behind the paper a little. I think I had trouble with this with the aluminum as well.

Are you very careful about touching the surface of the print? It seems that finger oils can cause problems with the gum adhesion at times. This would be from handling before coating a gum layer, maybe after the sizing and before/during the dry-mounting. The oils wash out when in the water, but not necessarily if the paper hasn't been wet again after the mounting.

Lastly, what are you using for the mounting? Any chance some of the adhesive or adhesive plasticizers is bleeding through the paper and causing an area of low adhesion?

Do you size before or after the mounting? I always size both front and back, and maybe you should size before you mount so you can size the back as well. Either coat both sides with a brush or dip the paper in a tray.


As you said, lots of variables in gum printing, and the number of failure modes are astounding.



---Michael

[bob carnie]

I am thinking fisheyes as well,
In your opinion what is some of the causes of this?

I try to make sure the ratio is pretty close if not bang on- I wonder if the yellow pigment may need less gum to tube ratio?
I am currently using equal ratios and trying to only change one sequence.

I have 15 prints to work on today, sunday and monday so I will have lots to see.

One other thought, they almost look like fisheyes as well. Is your yellow gum mix a little watered down compared to the other colors? Too much yellow pigment in relation to gum?

[bob carnie]

Michael - thanks for your response
here are some answers to your questions


1. I try to coat the same each time, I have moved back to a foam brush and I got 6 out of 8 decent results
2. You are correct I do not develop face down but rather face up.
3. You are correct this last round the adhesive was done by another source and caused issues - but I was able to keep registration
4.I do not ever touch the paper surface.. after 30 min washout I may do an very light brush to bring up highlights a bit.
5.I do not think the mounting adhesive is an issue as its inert but I do like your idea about sizing the back.
6.Not a bad idea about sizing the back of the paper before Mounting - will have to try this down the road.

I am going to switch papers - currently using Arches Platine, but I have a source for the new Hannamuhle Pt Pd paper at about half the price or I will move to COT 320 which we found to be quite lovely


regards

Bob

I was going to ask about the coating as well... If there is any sign of coating irregularities in the gum when you are spreading the mix, it will be apparent on the print after washout.

I don't think he can develop face down because of the aluminum unless he sets up some kind of rack to hold the sheet off the bottom.

Are you sure you are getting perfect adhesion of the paper to the aluminum? It sort-of looks like there are possible bubbles of air trapped behind the paper a little. I think I had trouble with this with the aluminum as well.

Are you very careful about touching the surface of the print? It seems that finger oils can cause problems with the gum adhesion at times. This would be from handling before coating a gum layer, maybe after the sizing and before/during the dry-mounting. The oils wash out when in the water, but not necessarily if the paper hasn't been wet again after the mounting.

Lastly, what are you using for the mounting? Any chance some of the adhesive or adhesive plasticizers is bleeding through the paper and causing an area of low adhesion?

Do you size before or after the mounting? I always size both front and back, and maybe you should size before you mount so you can size the back as well. Either coat both sides with a brush or dip the paper in a tray.


As you said, lots of variables in gum printing, and the number of failure modes are astounding.



---Michael

[Erik Larsen]

I am thinking fisheyes as well,
In your opinion what is some of the causes of this?

I try to make sure the ratio is pretty close if not bang on- I wonder if the yellow pigment may need less gum to tube ratio?
I am currently using equal ratios and trying to only change one sequence.

I have 15 prints to work on today, sunday and monday so I will have lots to see.

Fisheyes show up in the coating stage. You would definitely notice them while coating. Kind of like trying to coat water on an oil spot, the spot will resist any attempt to coat it. When I've seen this it is because my coating solution was a bit thin/watered down. Adding a bit of clear gum to the coating solution thickens it a bit making for a better coating.

Also if the size is to "plasticky" it makes it more difficult to get a good coating.

According to andersons book, some pigments are "oilier" than others which could cause problems. She mentions magenta and carbon black but not yellow?

I'm baffled by your spots. with the amount of prints you are making I'm assuming you've got a consistent workflow from one to the next making it strange that some prints are good and some are spotted. The only variable you can't control is the paper, perhaps the starch sizing from the factory is not always consistent on Arches Platine contributing to your spots?

Good luck!

[bob carnie]

Hi Erik

thanks for your comments..

I am of the absolute camp of darkroom workers that will alway blame OE- operator error before anything else- I am sure its inconsistency in my workflow, as when I am working I am a bit like a machine . I am not
doing one at a time and I am fast, always been this way .. I do not think its the paper and will not give myself an out.- its certainly something I am doing wrong on some of the images.

On Platinum Palladium I am getting no issues, its the 2, 3 and 4 coat that is the tricky part.

I am sure this is my fault, I am beginning to think water condensation at one stage is creating this oily resistance which manifests as larger round dots.

Bob

[Erik Larsen]

Yeah Bob, maybe it's just a matter of water drops somehow ending up on the drying coating from errant spray while washing hands or leaky roof look on the bright side, at least you're getting some good prints and not all have the spots!