I need advice to buy 5x4 for interiors & architecture Im changing from using medium format

[Rainer]

James,

I had to laugh on myself, when i read your post. I´m doing it the other way around: I´m starting out in architectural photography right now and my work has not been published so far, but i´m fully equipped already. I´m working on a portfolio these days to start out.

My first purchase was an old Cambo SC 4x5", which i still use for landscape and other very "slow" kind of works, but it´s too bulky for carrying around when shooting architecture.

A few weeks ago i found a mint Linhof Technikardan 23 (6x9) at a local retailer here in Vienna, Austria. It´s the smaller version of the Technikardan 45. It´s a very well engineered camera, lightweight, ultra compact and it offers all kind of movements you´ll ever need. I´m very pleased with it so far. The only negative thing i can say about it is, that it only accepts (very expensive) Linhof Rollex backs.

Of course i can not do 4x5" with it, but to reduce costs i anyway only wanted to use rollfilm for the beginning. If there is a need for 4x5 i´m going to switch to a 4x5 camera and trade the TK23 in.

My choice will be Technikardan 45S then or Arca Swiss F-Line 4x5. I agree with Andre that Sinar is for Studio - too bulky, to heavy, ...

If 150mm is your long lens, i´d get a 75 as the short one. It allows some movements at 4x5. 65mm does not. If you´re going to shoot also rollfilm 65mm is a good choice. I use it and it´s a must have to me. Don´t know how much you´re willing to spend for lenses. I use following range and it´s a perfect collection to me for using on 6x9 and 4x5"(Cambo): Grandagon 45, Grandagon 65, Angulon 90, Symmer 150, Topcon 210.

It takes some time to get used to the upsidedown image. I would not buy a bino reflex. Some people told me it´s ok for longer lenses but does not work on shorter ones. I don´t like the darkcloth very much but there seems to be no satisfying alternative.

If you´re going to buy mailorder contact Mr. Greiner in Germany (friendly and NOT in a hurry when talking to you on the phone). He knows what he is talking about and you´ll find everything you need there. My experience buying some stuff there has been very satisfying. Tell him I recommended his business - maybe there will be a nice discount at my next purchases ;-)

Any helpful advice to get into business as an architectural photgrapher are highly appreciated!!!

(Sorry for my lousy English!)

Regards,

[CG]

A couple of thoughts...

1. You are asking questions that can only be answered by you through using cameras... What camera is best? I could recommend ten or twenty 4x5s well suited for wide angle photography. And my thoughts on what might be best would be at best questionable for anyone else. You will need to test, rent, borrow, travel to,,,and use, some cameras. Whatever it takes to handle and USE some LF cameras. I know that it is one of those chicken and egg conundrums; you need the experience to know what items you need to get, to get the experience, to get.... Ugggh. I suspect that LF is a take the plunge process ultimately.

2. Failing the chance to use cameras you do not own, buy a cheeeep wideangle camera - get your experience cheeep. My suggestion? The old Calumet Wide 4x5. It is relatively inexpensive, and purpose built for short lenses. It's short enough and light enough to be a good architectural starter camera.

3. In time you have enough experience to know what constellation of features matter to you most.

4. If you will be shooting 6x9 roll film, the Toyo 6x9 back for 4x5s works quite well for me...

5. For 6x9, you will need to get down to something like 65mm or shorter as a start for a wide lens.

6. Theoretic question...Are you sure you will save that much by shooting rollfilm? A good roll film back to fit 4x5 will set you back quite a few bucks, money that would have bought you a lot of 4x5 film.

Best,

C

[Ralph Barker]

A couple of points to consider, James, that I didn't see covered in the previous responses.

First is the ability to swap the standard bellows for a bag bellows. As you'll be using wide lenses for a good portion of the work, a bag bellows is almost essential to avoid the compression of the standard bellows that restricts movements. A bag bellows also solves the problem of needing recessed lens boards for wide lenses.

Second is the length of the monorail. The camera should come with, or allow you to switch to a short rail, so you don't have the excess rail poking you in the chest, or extending into the image. The Toyo 45C and 45GII, for example, come standard with a 450mm rail, but the standards can be easily moved to one of the shorter Toyo rails, 100mm, 150mm, or 250mm, as needed.

With respect to movements, I think you need to have all possible movements available. Both rear and front tilt is essential to maintaining subject geometry, while swing allows you to control the axial placement of the plane of sharpest focus. Shift (both front and rear), combined with rise/fall (again, both front and rear), allows compositional fine-tuning without having to move and reset the camera position.

A "basic" monorail, like the Toyo 45C, with a bag bellows and a short rail will get the job done, although many of the movements are "manual", not geared. The Toyo 45GII adds geared movements, and more weight and expense. The Toyo 45GX combines the geared movements with both center and base tilt - potentially handy if you're using a roll film back or even conventional 4x5 film holders with extreme movements. What I like about the Toyo line is its modularity - most of the components can be interchanged between the different models, allowing you to essentially "custom build" your own set of features.

With respect to the roll film back, my suggestion would be to avoid the models that slip under the regular ground glass. Their design requires that the roll film travel around a small-radius roller at the end of the holder. If the film is left in that position for any significant time, it will develop a (temporary) bend, which will affect flatness on the next exposure. A holder that attaches via a Graflok-like system usually has a more relaxed film path. There are "slider" backs available for the Toyo that incorporate both the ground glass and the roll film holder next to each other. Note, however, that the rear standard can get in the way of these units if the back is center-tilt only and extreme movements are required.

As to lenses, I'd suggest considering both focal length and maximum aperture. For interiors, for example, you may find that an f/5.6 maximum aperture is essential for ease of focusing, even though the price of a traditional 90mm f/8 might be tempting. Then, consider image circle. As others have noted, many of the "super-wides" have limited image circles, potentially making a 90mm lens more practical. A possible variation is the aspheric Schneider Super Symmar XL lenses that have large image circles. An 80mm SS XL and a 110mm SS XL might be a nice combination for 4x5, but would be long for 6x9.

[David Karp]

So much advice, so I will be brief.

I second talking to Jim at Midwest Photo Exchange. A good honest guy who will give good advice and who sells very good quality used equipment. He even talked me out of buying a camera he had because he did not think it would meet my needs. (He was right.)

I recommend buying an inexpensive monorail camera and working with it a bit. You can buy a Cambo SC or Calumet 45NX (same camera basically) used for very low prices right now. Either would work fine for architecture, especially if you buy the short (12") rail to go with your camera. Other used cameras would also be worth considering: Linhof Kardan, Toyo C, G or GII, Horseman, Sinar F2, and others are good cameras. I also recommend buying used lenses. You can put together a good used lens kit that you will not be able to distinguish from new. Again, talk to Jim. You can pick up a used kit, including a 75mm, 90mm and a camera for less than a new Arca Swiss F-Line. If you find you want an Arca Swiss or other view camera in the future, the lenses you buy now will work with it and you will have a much better idea of what you want after working with a camera for a while.

Here is a disagreement. I think that you need back movements for architecture. Back swings are very useful for correcting perspective, for example. Don't limit yourself by buying a camera with front movcments only.

Best of luck.

[Joseph Dickerson]

James,

Much good information above. This forum is amazing. I'd second the suggestion Steve Simmons made re: books plus the McGrath book.

Steve's view camera book is one of the best I've seen and I don't work for View Camera (in fact I work for a whole 'nother magazine).

You might also call Jeff at Badger Graphic Sales. I'm currently reviewing their M-1 view camera and it's a steal for the money.

I do a lot of historic architecture, California Missions, Light houses etc. with a Sinar F-1 and it works great and the weight is not too bad for field work.

Good luck,

JD

[Henry Ambrose]

I'm using an Ebony SW45 for my architecture work. It is a wonderful camera for wide to normal lenses. It has all the movement I need and not anything extra to get in my way. Prior to this camera I owned an Arca Swiss monorail and was very pleased with it. The Ebony is less than half the weight and equally versatile given the lenses I use, 58, 80, 110, 150, 180. Seventy percent of the pictures I make are with the 80 and 110 on 4X5 film. What the Ebony is NOT is a system camera. I can't add on parts and accessories to change the camera's capabilities very much, not like I could with the Arca. But I finally realized one day that I didn't need to accessorize, that for me photographing buildings did not call for every gadget and possibility in the book, and I'm much happier with the single purpose tool that the Ebony is for me.

The SW45 is also excellent with roll film backs if you want to shoot more frames. Personally I find that shooting 4X5 is not expensive because I don't shoot a lot of film. I can see what I'm getting on the ground glass and know for sure what I'm getting from the Poloroid, so I don't have to burn lots of film, and you're going to shoot Polaroid with either format. But I do use rollfilm for some work and its good when you need it. The other great thing about 4X5 over rollfilm is that I can scan it on a good inexpensive flatbed scanner and deliver GREAT digital prints and files, files big enough and good enough to cover any print publication's needs several times over. The combination of big film and a cheap scanner that generates files that are vast overkill is a very reassuring thing to have.

In terms of comparison to your 6X6 outfit using a 40 and 80 -- for your 4X5 I'd say get a 75 or 80 and a 150. Or if three lenses are possible then get an 80, 110 and 150 combination. (if forced to pare down that's what I'd keep) Whatever you buy I think you will find that a camera with movements is going to be a huge factor in your photography.

[Norm Johnson]

I wonder if also the comment about cost of roll film adapter vs using money for cut film. I have used and own both, unfortunately I have a slide in roll holder that is a pain to use sometimes. When I use roll the whole roll needs processing the same. For Black and White I may take two shots of same view and develop first sheet film normal and then hold off developing second sheet plus or minus. In the years I took thousands of news assignments with Graflex 45's this was almost standard for anything out of normal shots and amazing how the plus minus made some wonderful adjustments. That would maybe be something to consider.

The books mentioned above are very good and I might add also, The View Camera Techniqueby Leslie Stroebel which is a comprehensive book with lots of information.

You should be able to get some very good used camera's. For years I also owned a furniture photography studio and strickly commercial. We had a Burke James FlatBed 810 additionaly a 45 back and an ll14(some clients wanted 1114 contacts. These were rock solid and may be available used at a reasonable price. I had a Cambo at the time witht he sliding roll back in 4 by 5 size, thinking I would save money by using roll film. It all but collected dust(the roll back that is.

I am learning a lot on this forum. Do not claim to be an expert.

Finding someone who will answer your questions and not just want to grab your money and has knowledge is critical in my opion.

Norm

[Ed Eubanks]

Ok, first I admit that I skimmed a lot of the answers above, so I don't know if this has been covered completely or not. However, I want to comment anyway...

James, you mention several problems you've had in trying out LF cameras-- the stuffiness and heat under a darkcloth, difficulty of focusing upside-down, etc. I would add to that the fact that getting behind a LF camera when it is in certain positions/angles can be quite difficult, and impossible at times-- some of these times strike me as the sort of things an architectual photographer might encounter. You also mention the problem of the high cost of film-- certainly a factor, as well.
That said, the movements and benefits offered-- tilt, swing, shift, rise, etc.-- by a LF camera, plus the larger film size, are certainly important benefits for architectual work, since they allow you to accomplish perspective shift, etc. I will grant that LF cameras are especially useful in some circumstances.
However, let me suggest the Fuji GX680 medium-format camera system. This is a great animal that lets you shoot rollfilm in any size from 6x4.5 up to 6x8, and provides all of the front movements a view camera offers. You can check the specs at this link.
It may not solve all of your problems (if, in fact, you need rear movements, for example), and it is expensive, but it may provide a workable solution.

[Andre Noble]

I'm a little suspicious of people who's first point of advice is to suggest that someone calls 'this' salesman or 'that' salesman.

Calling a salesman is the LAST thing you do AFTER you have done all your research first.

[Frank Petronio]

I suspect that "guillaume p" works for Arca-Swiss ;-)

Not having read all the above that closely, but having done a fair amount of architectural work, I can tell you that the two most over-rated lenses that most people tell you that you need are a super wide angle lens (like a 58 on 5x4) and the famous Schneider 110mm XL.

Frankly, if you're working for Dwell, they aren't interested in generic, crappy super wide shots like every beginner tends to do. Most people start off by shooting architecture with too wide a lens because that is what they think they have to do. Bull - use a "normal" or slightly wide lens.

Second, a 110XL costs over $1200 in the USA. You can buy a good 90/6.8 Grandagon for less than $500 used, and if you shop abit, you can find used 90/4.5s for around $800. Leaving you enough to buy a good 135 to 180mm normal, and maybe a longer 240 to 300.

The Arca-Swiss Discovery is a good value at $1299, and it does have full movements. Get the wide angle bellows in leather for it ($400) and replace the tripod mount with an Arca-Swiss style dovetailed plate.

The Arcas and the Wistas have very bright viewing thanks to excellent fresnels - I wouldn't monkey with a reflex viewer - just get a good darkcloth and "get used to it." Your brain will be inverting images in no time... A stiff drink beforehand helps the process.

Used Sinar Normas are wonderful cameras too, and cost half of the Arca. The truth is that nearly any mid-level 5x4 monorail "system" camera will get the job done - Cambos, Toyos, etc. even old ones.