Shipping to countries with known mail fraud - Paypal enabling

[goamules]

I've shipped lenses all over the world: Russia, China, Thailand included among many other countries that have better mail systems.

I'm often asked by a "member" with no posts on this and other forums to sell them an item, which must be shipped to one of the known countries that have dismal success rates at getting the package there. That's two strikes: you are not a contributing member, but just joined to buy things. And you live in a country like Brazil, Outer Mongolia, Nigeria, Tajekistan, etc.

So my answer is usually "sorry", but this week (and 2 weeks ago on the Rangefinder forum) I tried to compromise. The person contacted me with a clear, polite PM, asking if I'd sell it to them, and where the shipping was. Both times I said:

"I feel uncomfortable that the item will arrive in your hands. If you are willing to take the risk, I will ship to you. But I want you to use a payment method other than Paypal. That will have to be a cleared payment, in my bank, before I'll ship."

Both times, they didn't even honor our conversation with a reply. Just...went...silent.

This leads me to believe some people in these countries like avoiding personal risk by only paying with Paypal. They know that if the lens doesn't arrive they can make a quick ping to Paypal, and will get their money refunded with no seller intervention. In effect, they want the seller to take all the risk. They send Paypal out into the ether, and wait. If the lens arrives, they can say they didn't get it. Or that it was damaged (likely in those countries). Either way, it's no fuss - no muss for them, they get the money back.

If I'm not mistaken, Paypal then refunds the money, and stops being involved. They don't ensure the person shipped it BACK. They don't check with the SELLER that HE received it, or that it wasn't damaged coming home. Right? It's a one way guarantee, they won't "unrefund" the money if you don't get it, will they?

One of these was an obvious scam. They guy offered way more than the lens was worth, and agreed to buy it when I was just posting about it. But the others (it happens about 3-4 times a year to me) just never answer to my terms. They only want to use THEIR terms. Paypal's guarantee that uses no real proof. If I'm wrong, someone correct me that Paypal doesn't refund, only Ebay does?

[Old-N-Feeble]

I don't advertise to sell on forums but I do sell on eBay. I have a fairly lengthy list of countries in my "refuse bid" list. I simply won't ship to those places... period... ever. If people in those places really want to buy in the USA there are third party options for that. I don't care if they utilize those third parties because once an item reaches that USA address I'm covered because the buyer can't claim non-delivery and unless that third party is someone in cahoots with the buyer and claims some sort of foul then it's over and done.

If a buyer has enough money to offer far more than what a pricey item is worth... then they can afford to use a third-party shipper/forwarder.

[koh303]

I've shipped lenses all over the world: Russia, China, Thailand included among many other countries that have better mail systems.

I'm often asked by a "member" with no posts on this and other forums to sell them an item, which must be shipped to one of the known countries that have dismal success rates at getting the package there. That's two strikes: you are not a contributing member, but just joined to buy things. And you live in a country like Brazil, Outer Mongolia, Nigeria, Tajekistan, etc.

So my answer is usually "sorry", but this week (and 2 weeks ago on the Rangefinder forum) I tried to compromise. The person contacted me with a clear, polite PM, asking if I'd sell it to them, and where the shipping was. Both times I said:

"I feel uncomfortable that the item will arrive in your hands. If you are willing to take the risk, I will ship to you. But I want you to use a payment method other than Paypal. That will have to be a cleared payment, in my bank, before I'll ship."

Both times, they didn't even honor our conversation with a reply. Just...went...silent.

This leads me to believe some people in these countries like avoiding personal risk by only paying with Paypal. They know that if the lens doesn't arrive they can make a quick ping to Paypal, and will get their money refunded with no seller intervention. In effect, they want the seller to take all the risk. They send Paypal out into the ether, and wait. If the lens arrives, they can say they didn't get it. Or that it was damaged (likely in those countries). Either way, it's no fuss - no muss for them, they get the money back.

If I'm not mistaken, Paypal then refunds the money, and stops being involved. They don't ensure the person shipped it BACK. They don't check with the SELLER that HE received it, or that it wasn't damaged coming home. Right? It's a one way guarantee, they won't "unrefund" the money if you don't get it, will they?

One of these was an obvious scam. They guy offered way more than the lens was worth, and agreed to buy it when I was just posting about it. But the others (it happens about 3-4 times a year to me) just never answer to my terms. They only want to use THEIR terms. Paypal's guarantee that uses no real proof. If I'm wrong, someone correct me that Paypal doesn't refund, only Ebay does?

Reading their rules or posting this where it actually belongs, say an Ebay "community board" thread (or paypal when relevant) is not a bad idea if you want to sell and be aware of the rules. You are mistaken about a great many things about paypal and Ebay.

Use a reliable shipping carrier which requires a signature upon delivery, with full insurance (all courier services do that).
Then if a buyer says they dident get it, you have proof, or your money back.
If they say it was broken, you get your money back
If they claim via paypal, they have to send it back, on their ticket for paypal to honor the claim, andyou still get paid by insurance on the original shipment regardless.

Just as many crooks in the US then in most other places in the world, and you are open to the same risk when selling in the US (or greater risk).

It seems like you are getting hit many times (or at least you write about it often), perhaps the problem is not with your buyers?

[RSalles]

That's a sort of fun reading Brazil mixed with "outer" Mongolia, Tajekistan, and so fort... I don't know how bad the postal services or buyers in those countries are.
But for myself, what I can say is the postal service here is as risky as USPS: that stinky think can happen - add Murphy's Law to the sentence.

Actually I have an account 10 years old at ebay, and nearby the same at PayPal - with 100% feedback at ebay where I count 200 successfully deals. One time I had the intention to buy a lens from a seller in UK but he refused to send to Brazil with the same impression as yours. At later time I came to the point where shipping fees were increasing and hired a forward service in USA which I'm using now. I bought maybe 10 items as cameras and lenses here at the forum, and myself and the seller are happy. And sold a shutter - the only item I have sold here - to a member in CO or NV, don't remember, all went equally well for both. So, in my opinion, it's more important to consider the person and its feedback as a buyer then the country where he lives.

Cheers,

Renato

[Old-N-Feeble]

RE Feedback: Feedback on forums is one thing but feedback on eBay is quite another. A seller is only allowed to leave positive feedback for buyers... doesn't matter if the seller proves the buyer is a scammer. So a buyer can have 500 feedback but scammed another 500... as long as he isn't proven a scammer he can just keep scamming.

[480sparky]

The scam works because they're in a country that cannot get delivery confirmation in the US. So as soon as you say you shipped the package, PayPal sends you a notice that the buyer never received the package. You can tell PayPal you sent the package an hour ago and they don't care.... you gotta pay the buyer back.

[RSalles]

So, what about selling with a shipping type with "proof of delivery"? Many types of shipment has this option. A buyer can argue what he wants, but against a proof of delivery signed by him is a difficult task. Otherwise, just don't sell. I can imagine how hard can be for a seller to close a deal with 100% of his part well done, and never seeing his money back,

Cheers,

Renato

[Old-N-Feeble]

Renato, proof of delivery isn't available in all countries and restricted signature (signature of specific recipient with photo ID) certainly isn't. I just don't bother shipping to the known 'problem countries'. For one thing, even if I was able to get such delivery services then I'd have to set ALL of my overseas shipping to those preferences which adds much to the shipping cost. This would decrease my overseas sales overall.

[RSalles]

That's a thing to battle with ebay: to ask them to let the seller to set the shipping modality depending of the country. In doubt, Fedex or DHL or other with full POD,
(actually, it's a common thing to find in the product description some restrictions to where and how the item have to be shipped, even if in the "check out" section the buyer can choose another one bypassing the seller shipping policies, from Japan for instance it's a very used restriction they apply to,

Best,

Renato

[Old-N-Feeble]

Renato, it would be far too much trouble to set one's shipping preferences for each country especially since things can change on a per-item basis. This is true for at least for 99 percent of all sellers on eBay. Listing restrictions in the item description does nothing if the seller doesn't set those same restrictions in his/her seller settings. Regarding using a third-party checkout... same issues as above... it's just not worth all the extra time and trouble.