Problems understanding the Zone System

[Light Guru]

Maybe not, but I do know how to use an incident meter.

Yea they are hot hard to use, just like a spot meater is not hard to use. Some situations are better suited for one type of meeter and some are better suited for the other that's why we have both.

Say I'm under a tree using its branches to help frame my landscape image and provide some foreground interest with a lake and some mountains in the background. In this scenario is a incident meeter going to help me properly expose the those mountains in the background?

Nope not a chance. You want to use a spot meeter.

And bringing this back to the original topic of the Zone System.

Say I want to keep some detail in the shadowy branches of that tree. Using a spot meager and the zone system I can place them in zone 3 and them measure my highlights place them in zone 7 and then know how to develop to get the image that I pre envisioned.

[Glenn Goldapp]

There was a book printed about 1968. The name is "Zone System Manual" and it is by Minor White. It can be found used on Amazon. Most of the concepts of the Zone System are covered with actual exercises to help you understand before actually using the Zone System. It teaches the "eye match" method, which I still believe is important for a beginner. The "eye match" method uses comparisons that you make by looking at a standard black, standard white and grey card. Development times are determined by developing for Zone V which may not be the best method - but it works. Many photographers today use Zone VIII to determine development times - but there is not a standard Zone VIII card to match. . . so Zone V should be used for the "eye match" method.

[Bill Burk]

Thanks Rafal for the kind words.

I like to guide people through different approaches to the Zone System, because I enjoy it.

A number I often quote is 15% - because that's how far off I tend to be when I make a mistake, like re-using a tray of developer.

Fredrick, A great thing about the Zone System is that after you do the lab work, you may leave the high-math at home. In the field, you set your meter to the speed number you found. You meter something (meters always assume Zone V) and count up or down by Roman Numerals. That math might be easy for you. You got good answers how to place your shadows.

Not to contradict everyone, but more to tell the other side of a story. I think many things conspire against being able to achieve 100%.

For example, incident metering: I recently developed several sheets of a 100 speed film that I shot at 100. I hadn't taken the time to test it. I used an incident meter and was disappointed with my lack of shadow detail. It's not the incident meter's fault - I should have tested. A test could have told me to set the meter at 50. Moral: Use too high a speed and your negatives may lack shadow detail by any metering method.

Another example, other failures: On Film Photography Day I took five photographs on four sheets of film. The first three were OK. The last one, I forgot to pull the darkslide out for one shot. The final shot wasn't properly focused. Moral: Many things conspire against you.

I poked around a couple threads to try to get to know you better. I like your landscape shot! I also saw you picked up some slide film. This idea of giving shadows plenty of exposure and developing for highlights is for Black and White negative film. Soon as you shoot color, or transparencies, you need to follow different exposure procedures.

[Lenny Eiger]

This is much simpler than it is being explained here. The zone system is a wonderful tool.

There are four steps

1. Read you shadow detail reading.
This is generally called Zone 3, the place in the shadows where you would like to see full detail. Dark colored dirt is a good example.

2. Read your highlight reading.
This is the last place you want full detail in the highlights.

3. Subtract one from the other.
Note (on your holder with a pencil) your N reading.
This is easiest if you are using a meeting that reads in EV's.
That way it's some numbers like 12 - 6. I'm sure you can handle that. Much easier than dealing with parts of a second.

I use 4 stops as the "magic number". It's an old habit. Some use 5, or some other number. It doesn't really matter, its the development chart that matters.

In my system, if there are 4 stops between the two readings, that's N.

7 stops N-3
6 stops N-2
5 stops N-1
4 stops N
3 stops N+1
2 stops N+2

It's all about that relationship to 4. These N numbers relate back to a chart on your darkroom wall for how long to process your film based on the N number.

4. Close down 2 stops from the Zone 3 reading to expose.
This is simple. If Zone 3 was at 6, set the meter at 8 and see what your exposure choices are. If you can't remember which way, its always a number in between the two readings. I like the depth of field at f45. Everyone's different.

That's it.....

I don't think an incident meter is appropriate. One can get it to work, but why? The Zone System is too easy. I don't think you need to read any books, or do expensive testing. You just need to follow the instructions a few times and it will get easy. I did all the testing when I was younger. I don't look at the densitometer anymore, I just look at the negative... and how it prints.

The books mostly help you to understand why this works. It's basically that development does NOT increase film speed (for all practical intents and purposes). What that means is that if you didn't expose the film enough to get you the shadow detail you want, no amount of development will help. You can develop the film for a year and you won't get any more detail. That's where the part of the expression "Expose for the shadows" comes from. The exposure is what controls the amount of shadow detail.

However, the longer you develop, the darker the highlights will get. That means the negative will be more and more contrasty with added development time. If you go too far, you won't be able top print those highlights (with detail). Therefore, you want to adjust the contrast of the negative from the original scene to what the rest of your process can handle. That's where the "develop for the Highlights" part comes in.

I hope this helps...

Lenny

[Lachlan 717]

IMO an incident meter can get you the right exposure every time, no exception.

What if there's insufficient light for it to give a reading? I figure that's an exception.

On a broader note, I'm not sure why this thread has degraded into a pissing contest about meters. Both work if used correctly within their working range. One might suit your style/understanding/tolerance levels better than another.

After all, in the timeline of photography, meters are relatively new. What did they do before them?

Perhaps we all should lighten up a little.

[welly]

Perhaps we all should lighten up a little.

How should we meter that?

[Lachlan 717]

How should we meter that?

Perhaps use the Surly 16 rule?

[Fredrick]

This is much simpler than it is being explained here. The zone system is a wonderful tool.

There are four steps

1. Read you shadow detail reading.
This is generally called Zone 3, the place in the shadows where you would like to see full detail. Dark colored dirt is a good example.

2. Read your highlight reading.
This is the last place you want full detail in the highlights.

3. Subtract one from the other.
Note (on your holder with a pencil) your N reading.
This is easiest if you are using a meeting that reads in EV's.
That way it's some numbers like 12 - 6. I'm sure you can handle that. Much easier than dealing with parts of a second.

I use 4 stops as the "magic number". It's an old habit. Some use 5, or some other number. It doesn't really matter, its the development chart that matters.

In my system, if there are 4 stops between the two readings, that's N.

7 stops N-3
6 stops N-2
5 stops N-1
4 stops N
3 stops N+1
2 stops N+2

It's all about that relationship to 4. These N numbers relate back to a chart on your darkroom wall for how long to process your film based on the N number.

4. Close down 2 stops from the Zone 3 reading to expose.
This is simple. If Zone 3 was at 6, set the meter at 8 and see what your exposure choices are. If you can't remember which way, its always a number in between the two readings. I like the depth of field at f45. Everyone's different.

That's it.....

I don't think an incident meter is appropriate. One can get it to work, but why? The Zone System is too easy. I don't think you need to read any books, or do expensive testing. You just need to follow the instructions a few times and it will get easy. I did all the testing when I was younger. I don't look at the densitometer anymore, I just look at the negative... and how it prints.

The books mostly help you to understand why this works. It's basically that development does NOT increase film speed (for all practical intents and purposes). What that means is that if you didn't expose the film enough to get you the shadow detail you want, no amount of development will help. You can develop the film for a year and you won't get any more detail. That's where the part of the expression "Expose for the shadows" comes from. The exposure is what controls the amount of shadow detail.

However, the longer you develop, the darker the highlights will get. That means the negative will be more and more contrasty with added development time. If you go too far, you won't be able top print those highlights (with detail). Therefore, you want to adjust the contrast of the negative from the original scene to what the rest of your process can handle. That's where the "develop for the Highlights" part comes in.

I hope this helps...

Lenny

Thank you Lenny. This was very informative and I feel confident that I will be able to utilize The Zone System now. I will of course have to buy a light meter, but I feel that this is an investment that will pay dividence down the road in my photography. I'll read your post a few times and try to understand everything, and if there is anything I'm uncertain of, I'll ask about it. My learning progress is some what long, but when I finally learn something I remember it for the rest of my life. I don't think an incident meter would be appropriate, I don't want to leave anything to chance. I want a 1 degree spotmeter, preferably the pentax digital.

Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. Seems so simple put in those terms

[Fredrick]

Thanks Rafal for the kind words.

I like to guide people through different approaches to the Zone System, because I enjoy it.

A number I often quote is 15% - because that's how far off I tend to be when I make a mistake, like re-using a tray of developer.

Fredrick, A great thing about the Zone System is that after you do the lab work, you may leave the high-math at home. In the field, you set your meter to the speed number you found. You meter something (meters always assume Zone V) and count up or down by Roman Numerals. That math might be easy for you. You got good answers how to place your shadows.

Not to contradict everyone, but more to tell the other side of a story. I think many things conspire against being able to achieve 100%.

For example, incident metering: I recently developed several sheets of a 100 speed film that I shot at 100. I hadn't taken the time to test it. I used an incident meter and was disappointed with my lack of shadow detail. It's not the incident meter's fault - I should have tested. A test could have told me to set the meter at 50. Moral: Use too high a speed and your negatives may lack shadow detail by any metering method.

Another example, other failures: On Film Photography Day I took five photographs on four sheets of film. The first three were OK. The last one, I forgot to pull the darkslide out for one shot. The final shot wasn't properly focused. Moral: Many things conspire against you.

I poked around a couple threads to try to get to know you better. I like your landscape shot! I also saw you picked up some slide film. This idea of giving shadows plenty of exposure and developing for highlights is for Black and White negative film. Soon as you shoot color, or transparencies, you need to follow different exposure procedures.

Thank you! I really like working with black and white. Digital can't even come close to analog in tones. I really do enjoy it.
Yes, there are many things which conspire against us. I have had quite a few mistakes myself. For example, when I started out I had very uneven development. This was due to me developing in tanks, and when I was agitating I didn't angle the film from one side to the other. I have some other Large Format work in my flickr stream. I really like this one, but unfortunately I has streaks from the uneven development. It printed OK in smaller sizes. I would love for it to print well in a larger size though. Ah, I nearly forgot the link: Photo

[kev curry]

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