Problems understanding the Zone System

[welly]

Thank you! I really like working with black and white. Digital can't even come close to analog in tones. I really do enjoy it.
Yes, there are many things which conspire against us. I have had quite a few mistakes myself. For example, when I started out I had very uneven development. This was due to me developing in tanks, and when I was agitating I didn't angle the film from one side to the other. I have some other Large Format work in my flickr stream. I really like this one, but unfortunately I has streaks from the uneven development. It printed OK in smaller sizes. I would love for it to print well in a larger size though. Ah, I nearly forgot the link: Photo

There's nothing wrong with that photograph. Lovely.

[Joseph Dickerson]

"IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE"

Fred Picker presented a clear, simple explanation of the Zone System in his book "The Zone VI Workshop".

Get a copy of the book, read it, and you'll realize how easy it is to use the Zone System when you understand what your exposure meter is telling you.

You don't need to be a mathematical genius.

Another vote for the Picker Book...no math involved. Fred distilled, some would say diluted, the zone system down to what you really need to know to make it work.

JD

[Lenny Eiger]

Thank you Lenny. This was very informative and I feel confident that I will be able to utilize The Zone System now. I will of course have to buy a light meter, but I feel that this is an investment that will pay dividence down the road in my photography. I'll read your post a few times and try to understand everything, and if there is anything I'm uncertain of, I'll ask about it. My learning progress is some what long, but when I finally learn something I remember it for the rest of my life. I don't think an incident meter would be appropriate, I don't want to leave anything to chance. I want a 1 degree spotmeter, preferably the pentax digital.

Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. Seems so simple put in those terms

Frederick,

You're very welcome. If, after reading it a few more times you have a question or two, feel free to contact me directly. Of course, this forum is filled with folks who know this system well. You've got a lot of help available to you if you need it.

Have fun!

Lenny

eiger@eigerstudios.com

[Brian Ellis]

Thank you! I really like working with black and white. Digital can't even come close to analog in tones.

Assuming that by "tones" you mean separation or gradations of tonality, if you think digital can't even come close to analog, without intending any disrespect I'd guess that you've never seen a good b&w digital print made by someone who knows what he or she is doing. And if by "tones" you mean tonal range, I've seen measurements of dMax on various silver papers and on various "digital" papers. I don't remember the numbers but IIRC there was usually a slight dMax advantage to silver but certainly not "can't even come close."

There's a reason why people leave the darkroom to print digitally and it isn't always because they only do color or because digital is easier or faster. If we're talking about making a"fine print" (as opposed say to wedding or sports photography) it's actually much harder and usually slower. I have no problem with anyone printing in a darkroom, if that's what they like that's just fine. I printed that way for many years and enjoyed it. To each his or her own and all that. But if I couldn't make better prints digitally (better in terms of technical attributes) than I did in the darkroom I'd go back to the darkroom. And I suspect that would be true of others as well.

[Fredrick]

Assuming that by "tones" you mean separation or gradations of tonality, if you think digital can't even come close to analog, without intending any disrespect I'd guess that you've never seen a good b&w digital print made by someone who knows what he or she is doing. And if by "tones" you mean tonal range, I've seen measurements of dMax on various silver papers and on various "digital" papers. I don't remember the numbers but IIRC there was usually a slight dMax advantage to silver but certainly not "can't even come close."

There's a reason why people leave the darkroom to print digitally and it isn't always because they only do color or because digital is easier or faster. If we're talking about making a"fine print" (as opposed say to wedding or sports photography) it's actually much harder and usually slower. I have no problem with anyone printing in a darkroom, if that's what they like that's just fine. I printed that way for many years and enjoyed it. To each his or her own and all that. But if I couldn't make better prints digitally (better in terms of technical attributes) than I did in the darkroom I'd go back to the darkroom. And I suspect that would be true of others as well.

Yes, each to his/her own and all that. It's also a matter of subjective perception. I find silvergelatin prints much more appealing than digital gelatin prints. But that's not the topic of the conversation here.

I have been reading a little bit about the Divided Pyrocat, and I find it to be an interesting developer. Since it's very cheap I think I'll buy it and try it out. Originally I was going to buy a JOBO drum for 4x5 processing, but it's too expensive for me at the moment. The MOD54 seems to be my only option right now. I am just wondering if it is possible to use the Pyrocat in that configuration and avoid uneven development? I read a thread about someone processing in JOBOS and having a little bit of problems with it, untill he added a wetting agent to the solution.

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

I am using the Ilford Delta 100 film now, and have 70-75 sheets left. I plan on using all those sheets before I purchase any other BW film, so that I have mastered that film. Using many films at once would make me "Jack of all trades, Master of none". I'm either going to use Ilford DD-X or Kodak HC-110 (recomendations please). I previously used FX-39, but that developer gives too much grain and I find it a pain to use.

Delta 100 is a lovely film, I am just getting into it. If that's what you use, stick with it. Your idea of minimising options, and perfecting few, is a good one—I used HP5+ most of the time for almost a decade, and it helped me.

Ilford recommends DD-X (pricey) or ID-11 (D76) with Delta 100, but many developers will be fine. If you look up posts by Michael R 1974 about Delta 100 on APUG, you will find a few comments about DD-X and XTol, and he has posted a few curves for it. Since you said you're not too fond of math, you may find curve drawings easier, especially when you are ready to study how film/dev respond to your light.

[Fredrick]

I have now purchased a Pentax Digital Spotmeter. I am looking forward to receiving it and starting to utilize the zone system to it's full potential. I'm really excited! I've also got an interview/meeting about a darkroom 9. May. I really hope they have 4x5 enlargers. If not I think I'll buy a cheap 8x10 and use that for contact printing. I've been wanting a rodenstock 240mm anyway. Man I would love the to have the Seneca which is for sale here now, we'll see!

[Bob Sawin]

Perhaps use the Surly 16 rule?

You owe me a coffee...I just spit mine out while laughing...

[ROL]

80% is an estimate. Do you know what that is? Maybe you should have learned that too a long time ago.

You make my very point. The OP's entirely justified desire for exactness is not served by reviled estimations feigning authority.

I think it quite telling that you view percentages as estimates. The OP's question was about the ZS, for which incident metering, though being a great tool (like you) for general photographic work, offers little value. Maybe you should have learned a long time ago not to piss all over someone else's thread expressing a need for deeper understanding, with unhelpful comments justifying your own habits. I'd go so far as to say that you're comments should probably be totally disregarded 80% of the time, but really, I'd just be pulling that particular overused, sloppy figure feigning authority, out of my ass.

[jayabbas]

Time for you gents to fry some silver - eh !!