What printer gives the best B/W prints?

[Ken Lee]

Sorry am I reading Ken that you are saying inkjet carbon prints are equal in longevity as Pt/Pd prints?

Yes, as far as I know. The same is true with real carbon transfer prints. Sandy King can best speak to the question, but as far as I know, the longevity of carbon pigment prints is determined chiefly by the base onto which they are printed - just as it is for properly processed prints made with noble metals like Platinum and Palladium. As I recall, Sandy told me that he once instructed a student in carbon transfer printing whose interest included rendering carbon images of deceased individuals on tombstones in... perpetuity.

In an earlier thread, Mark from Aardenburg discussed this when I suggested that we leave a print in the window as a longevity test. As I recall, he warned out that too much direct sunshine will damage the paper before the image.

You can read more about this on Paul Roark's site.

[bob carnie]

Well Ken I doubt this very much, but would be interested to see how this goes.

We are talking about soot and noble metals here with wet prints, I would like to know the load pigment that can pass through the nossels when printing inkjet.

[sanking]

Well Ken I doubt this very much, but would be interested to see how this goes.

We are talking about soot and noble metals here with wet prints, I would like to know the load pigment that can pass through the nossels when printing inkjet.

My gut instinct is that inkjet prints made with pure carbon pigments will be very stable because the pigment itself is basically inert. Any issues would come from the binder, and how the binder holds the pigment together over the long term with the substrate.

Inkjet prints made with carbon pigments, and carbon transfer prints, are different in at least two fundamental ways. One, the agglomerate particles in a carbon transfer print are typically much larger than those used in inkjet printing. Agglomerate size by itself provides a safety net in terms of image fading. Second, the carbon relief is encapsulated in hardened gelatin, which we know from history to be very permanent. We can really only speculate at this point on the nature of the binder used in the carbon pigment inks used in inkjets.

Irrespective of the issue of permanence monochrome prints made with inkjet printers using six or seven shades of gray, on good quality rag papers, are very sharp and capable of extremely delicate upper mid-tones and highlights.

Sandy

[paulr]

Remember also that a pigment doesn't have to be pure carbon in order to be stable. Oil paintings have been around for hundreds of years and frescoes for longer ... we have a lot of experience with pigments that last unchanged a long time in display environments. And also with pigments that change a bit, and with ones that change a lot. This is a concern that's been around longer than inkjet printing. Or photography, for that matter.

[Brian Ellis]

"To perform my own empirical longevity test, I left a print in a window sill for a few months - with full sunshine on it - and saw no fading. "

I think that to really test fading, discoloration, etc. you need to make two identical prints, put one in a window or wherever else you choose to put it, keep the other in a light-tight box or whatever. Examine them side-by-side periodically. When you only make one print and keep it in light you have nothing to compare it to.

[Ken Lee]

"To perform my own empirical longevity test, I left a print in a window sill for a few months - with full sunshine on it - and saw no fading. "

I think that to really test fading, discoloration, etc. you need to make two identical prints, put one in a window or wherever else you choose to put it, keep the other in a light-tight box or whatever. Examine them side-by-side periodically. When you only make one print and keep it in light you have nothing to compare it to.

Sorry if my brief explanation was misleading. See this short article which shows the experiment and describes it in greater detail.

"I left a pure black print on the sill of a south-facing window for 2 months, with a thick book over one corner, and a note written in ball-point ink to my family members: "Do not move: experiment in progress". As you can see from the photograph, my handwritten message faded in the bright sunshine a long time ago, but there is no evidence of fading in the carbon print. You can't tell where the book covered the print at all."

Of course my test was not rigorous. This quote from Paul Roark's web site may be more helpful:

"MIS "Eboni" matte-paper-only carbon has now been used for a number of years and continues to be the most neutral carbon pigment as well as producing the most lightfast prints tested so far. In the most detailed and sophisticated fade testing, by Aardenburg Imaging & Archives, the best performance yet was by an Eboni print on PremierArt Fine Art Smooth paper, also sold as Epson Scrapbook paper. After 100 mega-lux hours of exposure (equivalent to 51 years of display as used by Wilhelm Research), the average delta-e (a measure of total fade and color change - lower is better) for all test patches was 0.2. The paper base delta-e was 0.5. The 50% test patch delta-e was 0.1. See ID#144 at Aardenburg-Imaging, where fade test data for many papers and inks is available from free (but I urge you to make a contribution to this tremendous photographic resource)."

[paulr]

I had an informal window test going for about 5 years. Half of each print stayed in a dark box for comparison. Everything held up better than expected, except for the tape, which kept disintegrating and had to be replaced a few times.

The c-print held up much better than the c-prints of my youth, which would fade from just a day out on a sunny counter. But it was the worst of the lot. After a year it was heavily faded. The silver prints showed no change, besides some drying and fine texturing of the gelatin itself. The platinum print's paper base bleached whiter in the first month, but then didn't change after that. The piezotone prints (which used Cone's portfolio black, not his archival black) changed infinitessimally in the darkest values. You could see the difference in strong light side-by-side with the control print, but otherwise the change was invisible. The change was first visible after a couple of years.

Unfortunately I didn't have access to color pigment inks or the newer Cone inks.

Remember that lightfastness tests are tailored to media that is primarily succeptible to light damage. Silver prints are primarily succeptible to oxidative damage. If we were applying the kind of rigor to silver print longevity that we apply to ink prints, we would be doing a different type of test entirely.

Fortunately, accelerated lightfastness tests are much easier to design than oxidative and sulfide damage tests. We can predict what spectra a print will be exposed to much better than what airborn chemicals.

[Bill_1856]

+1 to the use of Cone inks. What they get out of their inks is nothing short of remarkable. That said, a friend printed some images with a large HP printer, and got pretty wonderful prints that looked like Agfa 111 silver prints. I'm pretty happy with Epson 4900 and Imageprint, but a lot has to do with the paper as well. If I could just go BW in the printer, Cone inks for sure.

Wonder what paper he was printing on. That's as important as the ink.

[gevalia]

I've had some luck using Paul Roark's recommended "Carbon on Cotton": MIS Eboni inks and Quadtone RIP with several Epson printers and 100% rag paper like Epson Hot Press Natural and Canson Rag Photographique. Choice of paper has some influence on image color.

To perform my own empirical longevity test, I left a print in a window sill for a few months - with full sunshine on it - and saw no fading.

The images are made with pure carbon pigment, and look as nice or nicer than Pt/Pd prints I have made. The resolution is higher, the paper is smoother, and the longevity is equal. As others have pointed out, the QTR gives higher resolution than obtainable with the standard Epson drivers. It's so high you need a magnifying glass to see it all, much as we do with a good contact print on silver paper.

For more information, see this short article.

Ken,
I have just started using the Eboni-6 inks on a 6-ink epson 1430 and QTR. Being new to a BO inkset and QTR, it took me a few days and maybe 30 pages of Epson Hot Press to get the curve where I want. On Hot Press I get what I would call a neutral print. I also have some Canson Rag photographique and I see you have also printed with that paper. Does that print warmer with the E-6 inks? I'm looking for a paper that prints E-6 inks medium warm.

I should have said I have some Canson Rag photographique on-order, so I'm looking for a medium-warm paper with the E-6 eboni-only inkset.

Regards,
Ron

[Roger Thoms]

I've had some luck using Paul Roark's recommended "Carbon on Cotton": MIS Eboni inks and Quadtone RIP with several Epson printers and 100% rag paper like Epson Hot Press Natural and Canson Rag Photographique. Choice of paper has some influence on image color.

To perform my own empirical longevity test, I left a print in a window sill for a few months - with full sunshine on it - and saw no fading.

The images are made with pure carbon pigment, and look as nice or nicer than Pt/Pd prints I have made. The resolution is higher, the paper is smoother, and the longevity is equal. As others have pointed out, the QTR gives higher resolution than obtainable with the standard Epson drivers. It's so high you need a magnifying glass to see it all, much as we do with a good contact print on silver paper.

For more information, see this short article.

Ken, just curios, did you cover part of the print with an opaque material when you did your "sunshine" test?

Roger