Yeah, I really can't believe that they sent out replacement dark slides with the same problem. Totally lost my faith in the company at this point.Originally Posted by mattphogan
Yeah, I really can't believe that they sent out replacement dark slides with the same problem. Totally lost my faith in the company at this point.
As Daniel found out, not all the older slides had problems with opaqueness. The new dark slides are made of aluminum, unlikely to cause this problem. MAC must have pulled some of the older composite slides from stock holders and sent them to you. I am talking to Toyo about marking the aluminum slides to distinguish them. The aluminum slides weigh 35 grams each, and the composite slides are 21 grams. Weigh them and see which ones they sent you.
Kumar
I don't think it advisable to put ANY film in a holder in the sun for 4-5 hours. It will not hold back direct sun. They should be kept in a somewhat dark place until ready to use, especially with higher speed films. I would try them again in normal use procedures.
Sarah, please look at the test for a holder that was left in the shade for an afternoon. It is not inconceivable that a photographer might load 400 speed film for a trip and then over the course of a month have that holder be exposed to shade for what amounts to a cumulative few hours. Or one might be engaged with some form of long-exposure photography. There are many other scenarios where a holder might be exposed to light for more than just a few minutes.
Regardless, it is reasonable for a photographer to want their dark slides to be 100% opaque. Other dark slides are.
If Toyo stood by their product, they would tell people in the product descriptions that their slides are not 100% opaque, but that in their opinion, that doesn't matter, and that their design is appropriate or even superior for some reason. Since they don't do that, a user expects that dark slides protect their film from light. An appropriate response from a concerned company would be sincere apologies for the ruined photographs, and an offer for a refund or to fix the problem completely. When companies don't respond in such a way, it often becomes a larger PR problem that affects the company's reputation as a whole —*as already seen in chacabuco's comment above. Such PR problems quickly become much more problematic for growth and profits than a simple refund or fix might.
Toyo should look at this as an opportunity to really come across as a responsive, caring company who admits to their own errors and puts their customers first. Or, alternatively, they can look at this situation as a way to really damage the brand name.
I made the original post in this thread, and thought I'd add an update. I received my replacement slides from Toyo in October 2016. They're made of plastic, not aluminum, and they weigh 18 grams each.
First thing I did was the LED headlamp test and they passed, so I didn't think it necessary to repeat the test I did last year exposing film in the closed holders to the sun.
I have not seen the blotchy pattern on any negatives I've exposed since, so I'm hopeful the problem is solved. Most of my exterior shots have been on cloudy days, so I can't speak to what happens when the holders are exposed to direct sun, and I'm not absolutely certain that they're 100% opaque. My testing of the defective slides showed a noticeable effect even in indirect sunlight though, so the new slides are a big improvement.
I can now report another update. After the test above that demonstrated that the replacement slides are not opaque, I asked MAC Group to fix it entirely (e.g., provide metal slides) or offer a refund. When they initially declined, I reached out to more senior people in the company, and was ultimately offered a refund that I would process through my dealer, and my dealer would be reimbursed from MAC. This is now in progress.
I simply wasn't willing to pay for Toyo holders and have the slides not be opaque. And I wasn't willing to risk or worry about future photographs going forward.
FWIW, both my original slides and the replacements weighed 18g.
According to Kumar in this thread, the slides have since been redesigned with aluminum, and weigh 35g, not 21g or 18g. I'm certainly willing to give those a try. Presumably, they haven't made it from Toyo Japan to the US and MAC Group yet, or they would've offered them to us all in this thread. Either that, or MAC Group was hoping to offload more of their plastic slide inventory that wasn't milled too thin, knowing that the coming aluminum slides are superior and would make those plastic ones unmarketable. I'm pleased that MAC has now offered a refund, but am frustrated that it took so much effort on my part. I'm also still not impressed that they knew there were problems with the slides, and from what I can tell, they made no effort to issue a recall and make people aware. On the other hand, my dealer, Jeff at Badger, was supportive and I would like to thank him for his assistance here.
I would just update this as well to say that the replacement slides I got, while better than the first ones, are still not completely opaque. I tested them against my older holders, and those are totally opaque even with a 3200 lumen light behind them, but with the new slides, the light is still clearly visible through them. While I know this is a tremendous amount of light, leaving the holders out in the sun would also be a large amount of light, and as Matt said, I am not willing to mess around with this anymore. Their entire purpose is to block out light completely, and given how expensive and time consuming 4x5 is in the best case, I am sure not willing to risk it. Matt, can you share whom you spoke with, as I also intend to speak to them again.
Best regards,
Stuart
P.S. My replacement slides and originals weigh 18 grams too.
In which case you do not have the new aluminum slides.
Kumar
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