Regional Forums - UK/Europe

[IanG]

Ian, where did I give you any impression that I didn't know what the word "international" means? Given that all moderators at present are Americans, one logically assumes that anyone suggesting the need for international moderators would be wanting to add non-Americans. I did not accuse you of wanting to replace American moderators with non-American moderators.

If I'm missing your points so consistently when I don't usually, perhaps the only logical conclusion is that the problem is not with the reception, but rather than transmission. My lengthy replies are aimed at taking your terse statements enough distance to try to ascertain what they mean. With all due respect, you are not making your points clearly enough or meaningfully enough so that we can understand them. Maybe it's our fault, maybe it's yours, but the burden of clarity is on you--you are the one with something you are trying to get across. I'm open to it and I admit sometimes I'm dense.

Again, I ask you how lurkers and prospective members would detect this regional bias of which you complain, or even how they would know the identity and location of the moderators in making their decision whether or not to join and participate? And what visible actions could moderators take that would rectify that bias? Adding non-American moderators is not a problem, but it is also mostly if not completely invisible to lurkers. So that wouldn't solve your problem.

Rick "trying, hopefully not in vain" Denney

I think people are rather more fickle than you think Rick, you need to think from a non US perspective, and please I'm not complaining of a regional bias rather stating there is an obvious one in the moderator team, which cannot be denied, and suggesting that might be changed in the future. It's that simple no whole page replies

Ian

[Sal Santamaura]

I've got to give it to you Sal, you're always good for a laugh! I respect your sense of humour. Keep it up...

Nothing I've posted is humor. It's deadly serious. Protecting the community here requires as much vigilance as helping stave off unjustified attacks on Ilford's quality and pricing. All are susceptible to reputation harm. None deserve it.

[IanG]

So you're saying that the UK forum's owners didn't like your suggestions and decided not to have their moderators implement said suggestions? And you think there's something wrong with the owners of a private venue doing what they want with it??

Get it right Sal, just for once.

The UK LF forum was a collective originally, nothing to do with me, unfortunately the still active originators grew apart from the gradually less active pair that registered the domain name and host the swebsite. The fact that the active took on board changes which were suggested by many of us (inc 2 others in this thread) was up to them, and it's their issues with the admins that have crippled the website. I have zero to do with that - do you unsterstand that - it's very simple !!!!

In fact I'm saying just the opposite, the UK site's moderators came up with their own suggestions based on general consensus, sure they weren't exactly what I'd suggested but they were an excellent way forward and I gave 100% support.

The issue they have is they never agreed ownership of the domain name, and the original collective is disrpersed. So you really haven't been remotely helpful Sal.

Ian

[rdenney]

sorry Rick because I did state clearly I'm talking about regional bias not the bias of individual moderators thoughts.

I think people are rather more fickle than you think Rick, you need to think from a non US perspective, and please I'm not complaining of a regional bias rather stating there is an obvious one in the moderator team, which cannot be denied, and suggesting that might be changed in the future. It's that simple no whole page replies

Ian, no offense, but these sentences use English words and all, but they just don't make any sense. I'll take my page-long descriptions if they have logic that can be followed even when it is wrong, versus your cryptic codes that can't seem to be decoded even by you.

First you say it's not about how moderators think, it's a regional bias, and I try to explain (since you refuse to) how such a regional bias would be visible to lurkers and prospective participants, whom you identify as the principle target of these issues. Then, you say it's not a regional bias, it's an "obvious" one that cannot be denied.

Well, Ian, I'm denying it. Now, prove me wrong. Hint: You'll have to avoid using words like "obvious" and start actually having something to say.

A bias on the moderator team would be reflected in behavior, not composition. We will NOT make changes achieve any particular composition on the moderator team just so that you will like the list you see. If we did, then everyone with an ax to grind would want somebody just like them to be on the moderator team, and there is no end to that. By the same token, we have absolutely no issues with adding moderators from other parts of the world, if they have demonstrated consistency with the guidelines and principles of this forum, and have demonstrated the judgment skills needed to deal with the problems that arise.

I do not believe that Americans are incapable of understanding issues faced by UK and European participants, just because they are American. I categorically reject that notion. If that is your belief, then say so and we'll stop this now.

But I do believe it is possible for Americans to behave in a way that seems particularly American to non-Americans, even to the extent that it offends them. Those behaviors we moderators strive to avoid, so if there are any, then we need to know about them and eliminate them. We keep asking you for examples so that we'll know what those behaviors are that we can correct by whatever means. Your persistent inability to articulate those (outside the time-zone issue), and to ultimately deny them, I'll take as meaning that you don't really have any in mind.

Rick "who thinks we have time for one more round before declaring this one fully talked out" Denney

[Ian David]

For what it is worth, as a non-American, I am happy with the way this forum works. I have been a member/lurker here for a few years, although I have been more active elsewhere for reasons that have nothing to do with any failings of LFPF. I have not perceived any problems with the existing moderation team or their style of moderation.

[IanG]

Ian, no offense, but these sentences use English words and all, but they just don't make any sense. I'll take my page-long descriptions if they have logic that can be followed even when it is wrong, versus your cryptic codes that can't seem to be decoded even by you.

First you say it's not about how moderators think, it's a regional bias, and I try to explain (since you refuse to) how such a regional bias would be visible to lurkers and prospective participants, whom you identify as the principle target of these issues. Then, you say it's not a regional bias, it's an "obvious" one that cannot be denied.

Well, Ian, I'm denying it. Now, prove me wrong. Hint: You'll have to avoid using words like "obvious" and start actually having something to say.

A bias on the moderator team would be reflected in behavior, not composition. We will NOT make changes achieve any particular composition on the moderator team just so that you will like the list you see. If we did, then everyone with an ax to grind would want somebody just like them to be on the moderator team, and there is no end to that. By the same token, we have absolutely no issues with adding moderators from other parts of the world, if they have demonstrated consistency with the guidelines and principles of this forum, and have demonstrated the judgment skills needed to deal with the problems that arise.

I do not believe that Americans are incapable of understanding issues faced by UK and European participants, just because they are American. I categorically reject that notion. If that is your belief, then say so and we'll stop this now.

But I do believe it is possible for Americans to behave in a way that seems particularly American to non-Americans, even to the extent that it offends them. Those behaviors we moderators strive to avoid, so if there are any, then we need to know about them and eliminate them. We keep asking you for examples so that we'll know what those behaviors are that we can correct by whatever means. Your persistent inability to articulate those (outside the time-zone issue), and to ultimately deny them, I'll take as meaning that you don't really have any in mind.

Rick "who thinks we have time for one more round before declaring this one fully talked out" Denney

Too many words, to say nothing Rick.

How many times do I have to say bias in terms of geographic location is nothing to do with personal biases polital, artistic, whatever. It's how others percieve things, so they see only US moderators, some would be much happier to see a more International mix. Personally I'm not bothered but I think it sends a bad message having only US moderators on an International forum and that moderators from outside the US would help bring in more new members.

Ian

[Pete Watkins]

Sal,
The word is spelt humour, check the Oxford English Dictionary.
Nice to know that you're "deadly serious", Oh my gawd this is giving me problems! The tears are running down me legs, crap, I hope that they're tears.
Have I mentioned Ilford (you might find that the company is now called Harmon Technology). no? Have the moderators mentioned Harmon/Ilford, has Ian mentioned Harmon/Ilford? NO! What are you on? I would suggest that you were paid by Ilford to promote their company but you don't even understand that the company is now known as Harmon Technology. You need to know this for when you choose to slag me off next time (tha phrase "slag me off" might not be in the afore mentioned dictionary, check dialect websites, I'm sure that there would be a simple explaination there).

As I see it your priorities are:-
1/ Obtain a copy of The Oxford English Dictionary (readily available on Amazon).
2/ Discover the correct names of companies before you critisise those who have reason to boycott (you will possibly need the dictionary to understand this word, try Amazon) the company concerned.

One other thing you might need to be reminded of is that there is the letter "u" in the word colour. Check the dictionary (once you've bought it).
Best wishes,
Pete.

[Sal Santamaura]

Get it right Sal...

You've still not posted anything to contradict what I wrote.

...the still active originators grew apart from the gradually less active pair that registered the domain name and host the swebsite...

The latter being actual owners/funders of the venue.

...that the active took on board changes which were suggested by many of us (inc 2 others in this thread) was up to them, and it's their issues with the admins that have crippled the website...

So the moderators wanted to go along with your insistent suggestions, but the actual owners/funders of the forum didn't. As owner/funders of the venue, it's their prerogative to run it as they see fit, even if that (in your words) "cripples" it. Although I'm not convinced the lower activity level there didn't result from your "poisoning the well" and a substantially smaller pool of potential participants in the UK than there are in the US.

...So you really haven't been remotely helpful Sal...

Other than pointing out facts, which you've not refuted, what type of helpfulness would you have preferred I offer? Cheering on the idea of fracturing this unified global resource into regions?

The most helpful thing I can (and did) suggest was that you arrange funding for, host, purchase forum software for (or write your own) and run a UK large format photography forum. Then you can have things exactly as you like them. Moderators of your choosing. Categories to your taste. "Bias" as you prefer. Try it, you'll like it.

[welly]

As a British person living in Australia, I couldn't give a damn who the moderators are, where they're from or what colour socks they wear, as long as they do their job correctly and for the vast majority of the time I've been on this forum, they absolutely have.

Having non-US moderators would make absolutely no difference whatsoever to encouraging non-US members. How could it possibly, when new members don't even know who the moderators are? There's no disclosure on moderators and their nationality before, during or after signing up.

This has been one of the most bizarre, pointless and unnecessary threads I've read on this forum. I hope it dies soon, although I guess I'm not helping.

[sanking]

One other thing you might need to be reminded of is that there is the letter "u" in the word colour. Check the dictionary (once you've bought it).
Best wishes,
Pete.

Pete,

You are being funny, right? You do know that in the US the preferred spelling is humor and color?

Sandy