What are the best lenses for wet plate studio portraits 12X16inch format ?

[Louis.B_14X17]

Hello, I'm Louis, an amateur photographer based in Paris, France. I'm new to the forum because I'm embarking on a rather crazy project: I want to shoot very large-format studio portraits on wet plates using the wet collodion process.

I've just completed a training course and I'm now looking to buy the best equipment to achieve my goals. For the camera, I'm aiming to buy the Chamonix 14X17 and will use a reducer to make 12X16 plates. For the lens it is more complicated. During my research I found a good number of lenses that can cover the 14X17 format, but the problem is that these numerous references have apertures that don't go below f9 and that in the perspective of making wet plates with collodion it would be relevant to have the brightest lens possible. What's more, I've also seen that coated lenses should be avoided when shooting wet plates, as they produce too much contrast. And the last question about coated lenses is whether they are anti-UV coated, as my trainer told me that even more important than the quantity of light is the quantity of UV present in that light, which is the determining factor in the sensitivity of the phototographic collodion. Is this really the case? And modern lenses have anti-UV coating ? I haven't found anything to suggest this for the Fujinon C 600, Rodenstock's APO Ronar Cl 1070 or Nikon's APO Nikkor 1210, to name but a few.

To sum up, in view of my research, it seems more appropriate to turn to older, uncoated lenses, which could possibly have a wider aperture than more recent lenses. If any experienced people on this forum could help me in this direction, it would be a great help, as it's more difficult to find references for old lenses and to find ways of acquiring them.

Thanks in advance

[Mal Paso]

You say Studio, not Daylight? What will you use for light? Modern studio strobes have UV coating on the flash tubes to prevent optically brightened fabrics from glowing. Some sort of arc lamp might work. There have been a lot of enclosed arcs (sealed in glass) in the last 50 years, some are likely still available. Or you could be totally authentic with open arcs burning "carbons" like the old movie and search lights.

Depth of field will be thin below f9. Might be something to consider. Most of the large APOs were made for graphic arts where no depth of field was required. Depth of field can be calculated.

The largest source of lenses I know is ebay, other than that, this forum, Phototrio or any other large format forum.

[ethics_gradient]

Don't overthink the UV coating stuff; the Speedotron units that wet plate photographers use also have UV coated bulbs, but they still work fine. Similarly, the lens coatings probably won't make a huge difference. Quality of light, exposure, developer, and age of collodion will probably have much more of an effect on your contrast than a lens coating. Collodion has significantly less dynamic range compared to film or digital, which is just something you'll have to work with.

f/9 is pretty normal for a lens with that coverage. Ideally it sounds like you want a big petzval (which will be faster, not have modern coatings, and produce the period look that most wet plate photographers like), but they're very expensive these days. I watched a poorly advertised ("antique lens") Dallmeyer 4D that looked like it had been dug up out of someone's garden go for US$3500 on eBay last week.

[Jody_S]

Best lens? I've seen 400mm f4.5 Tessars, apparently 500mm f4.5 was made but rare and hard to find? A 400mm should cover 12x16in at portrait distance, 500mm would be better. Note on coverage: the 500mm was rated to cover a 400mm diagonal (you need 500mm) in the 1910 literature, but this is general purpose photography coverage with adequate sharpness; for your needs you need illumination and pleasant effects off-center, you don't need 30 lp/mm right out to the edge of your plate. Tessars illuminate a much larger circle than their acceptable coverage figures.

I would recommend an uncoated vintage Tessar (and not one of the modern coated process Tessars) for wet plate portraits over a Petzval, it is more versatile and will allow you to tame contrast, introduce flare, or go for sharpness, as you search for your sweet spot. A Petzval might be the historically correct lens, but is a one-trick pony, not to mention that Mammoth Petzvals tend to be in museums and don't come up for sale.

Or you could start with one of Mr. Schable's Wollaston Meniscus lenses for ULF, as an affordable beginning lens, cheap and readily available without having to deal with eBay.

[Reinhold Schable]

Here's some data on the 790mm f:5.4 ULF lens mentioned by Jody...
Also a "fall off" graphic showng various formats.

Reinhold

[Robin Winters]

Hey Louis, congrats on starting your wetplate journey. Before carving out $10k on a camera and placeholder that size, you might want to consider starting with an 8x10 camera and reducing 5x7 back. This way you can start shooting plates and learn the technique, how to mix your chemicals and how to keep them in shape, identify issues and with this the problem shooting. There are so many variables with this process that it is very challenging to start your wetplate journey with the 14x17 format. For portrait lenses this size, you live in France, I would be on the look out for big brass petzval lenses like: Darlot, Jamin, Hermagis, Derogy, Lerebours et Secretan, Berthiot, Chevalier,..

[AgNO3]

I had the same dream like you, wanted to go ULF after a few 5x7 shots with a wobbly now gone russian FKD camera. I´ve directly converted my car for 200€ into an ULF camera instead of investing in an ULF camera the price of my car and put affordable WW2 aerial lenses, 20"f6.3 & 36"f6.3Telephoto, Dallmeyer Design made by Wray for 9"x18" roll film in Fairchild cameras*, covering far more, in it. Shot a few unusual formats (mostly car glass) in 11x14, but I quickly decided to hone my skills on smaller cheaper 5x7 & 8x10s and DIYed (more butchered to carry the several kg of glass) a 11x14 camera, mostly reduced to 8x10 now.

Start smaller with 4x5 & 5x7 on an 8x10 camera. This camera will later be a handy "light meter" to test out exposure under natural light and check your chemicals before you shoot on 11x14 and bigger. To master the special problems with ULF plates, you´d better have yourself dialed in completely and have ironed out the "normal" issues occurig with wet plate, in your routine. Wet plate needs time and exercise to cross the barrier from visible pictures to flaweless photographs. Once the magic fixing moment and the ether high wears off, you´ll start to see, where you´ve technically messed up an otherwise beautiful shot (mostly done at the very last stages of the process). Apply the 10.000hr rule to achieve mastership and calculate for yourself, if you want to spend the exponentially rising extra costs on 11x14s, which will end up in the bin at a ration ranging from 1:10 to 1:5 during your 1st year anyways (depending on the varying conditions of weather and chems, not on you).

As for lenses, you are very blessed to live in Paris, if you are looking for 19th century glass. There is https://www.antiq-photo.com/en/paris-shop/ with a huge selection and you propably know of the analog flee market in Bievre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs6OiIJ0wTw The author of that YT Bievre-stroll-clip runs a little shop for wet plate lenses in Duesseldorf, Germany with always some offerings for ULF on the shelf. He recently sourced a ultra rare Rodenstock APO 1800mm, suitable for UULF 2m x 2m formats. It was priced at 10€ per mm focal length and was sold in an instant. Welp. https://www.wetplatedreams.com/

I´ve considered Schable´s meniscus lenses, too. Pictures on the web are promising, but costs of shipping to Europe put them out of my budget and the competition at that time. There is affordable glass in the old world to be found. You may be interested in soviet built large format glasses, described in the publications of Arne Croell. https://www.arnecroell.com/eastern-block-new.pdf Most are pre-WW2 German patents/designs like Tessars, produced in different qualities for different markets. Kiev was (and still is) the power house for special purpose eastern optics and also produced higher export qualities, than i.e. St. Petersburg. Still has a vibrant scene of used glass dealers on ebay. Professionally refurbished Industar/Lomo large format or projection lenses come at a fraction of a similar Zeiss Tessar or Rodenstock APO. My 750mm/f9 O-2 lens came at the price of a liter of collodion.

Regarding coating: Pre- to late WW2 is the era to look for, but every coating (or else slowing down factor like lens speed or bellows draw) can be overcome by the force of strobe power. Theres is just 80% of the energy wasted in light, not relevant for the collodion process. Everything strong enough for short exposures with collodion is painfull for the sitter, whether its constant light or strobes. Only a few brave people will show no fear on their 2nd portrait after the 1st shot under that flash bombardement left them blind for a good while.

Go ahead and show us some plates.

[Tin Can]

Hi Reinhold7
I still have your 790mm

I installed in a wall at my last DR, looking out of my Studio

T will do that again this Fall

Keep, on!

Here's some data on the 790mm f:5.4 ULF lens mentioned by Jody...
Also a "fall off" graphic showng various formats.

Reinhold

[Monty McCutchen]

I had the same dream like you, wanted to go ULF after a few 5x7 shots with a wobbly now gone russian FKD camera. I´ve directly converted my car for 200€ into an ULF camera instead of investing in an ULF camera the price of my car and put affordable WW2 aerial lenses, 20"f6.3 & 36"f6.3Telephoto, Dallmeyer Design made by Wray for 9"x18" roll film in Fairchild cameras*, covering far more, in it. Shot a few unusual formats (mostly car glass) in 11x14, but I quickly decided to hone my skills on smaller cheaper 5x7 & 8x10s and DIYed (more butchered to carry the several kg of glass) a 11x14 camera, mostly reduced to 8x10 now.

Start smaller with 4x5 & 5x7 on an 8x10 camera. This camera will later be a handy "light meter" to test out exposure under natural light and check your chemicals before you shoot on 11x14 and bigger. To master the special problems with ULF plates, you´d better have yourself dialed in completely and have ironed out the "normal" issues occurig with wet plate, in your routine. Wet plate needs time and exercise to cross the barrier from visible pictures to flaweless photographs. Once the magic fixing moment and the ether high wears off, you´ll start to see, where you´ve technically messed up an otherwise beautiful shot (mostly done at the very last stages of the process). Apply the 10.000hr rule to achieve mastership and calculate for yourself, if you want to spend the exponentially rising extra costs on 11x14s, which will end up in the bin at a ration ranging from 1:10 to 1:5 during your 1st year anyways (depending on the varying conditions of weather and chems, not on you).

As for lenses, you are very blessed to live in Paris, if you are looking for 19th century glass. There is https://www.antiq-photo.com/en/paris-shop/ with a huge selection and you propably know of the analog flee market in Bievre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs6OiIJ0wTw The author of that YT Bievre-stroll-clip runs a little shop for wet plate lenses in Duesseldorf, Germany with always some offerings for ULF on the shelf. He recently sourced a ultra rare Rodenstock APO 1800mm, suitable for UULF 2m x 2m formats. It was priced at 10€ per mm focal length and was sold in an instant. Welp. https://www.wetplatedreams.com/

I´ve considered Schable´s meniscus lenses, too. Pictures on the web are promising, but costs of shipping to Europe put them out of my budget and the competition at that time. There is affordable glass in the old world to be found. You may be interested in soviet built large format glasses, described in the publications of Arne Croell. https://www.arnecroell.com/eastern-block-new.pdf Most are pre-WW2 German patents/designs like Tessars, produced in different qualities for different markets. Kiev was (and still is) the power house for special purpose eastern optics and also produced higher export qualities, than i.e. St. Petersburg. Still has a vibrant scene of used glass dealers on ebay. Professionally refurbished Industar/Lomo large format or projection lenses come at a fraction of a similar Zeiss Tessar or Rodenstock APO. My 750mm/f9 O-2 lens came at the price of a liter of collodion.

Regarding coating: Pre- to late WW2 is the era to look for, but every coating (or else slowing down factor like lens speed or bellows draw) can be overcome by the force of strobe power. Theres is just 80% of the energy wasted in light, not relevant for the collodion process. Everything strong enough for short exposures with collodion is painfull for the sitter, whether its constant light or strobes. Only a few brave people will show no fear on their 2nd portrait after the 1st shot under that flash bombardement left them blind for a good while.

Go ahead and show us some plates.

Excellent informative post.

Monty