Identifying Fujinon lenses

[Bob Salomon]

To solve the secret of ImageCircle-"Downgrading" from the singlecoated to the EBCcoated Fujinon W lenses:
We have to differentiate between Image-Illumination-Circle and Image-Qualitiy-Circle. The older Fujinon W lenses have (like the Schneider Symmars) larger IIC but smaller IQC than the later EBC Fujinon W or Schneider Symmar-S lenses.
I have a modern Sinaron S 240mm lens with 72° IC and an old Fujinon w 250 with 80°. The Sinaron is very sharp to the IC-border of 36cm at f16, the Fujinon has 42cm IC but has to be stopped down to at least f32 to get reasonable sharpness from the middle IC radius to the border.
It seems that for the lensmakers and the photografers in earlier times the lens shifting was more important than the lens sharpness (maybe because of worse camera-technics and film-qualities), in modern times shifting without sharpness is a nogo. And yes, the last generation lenses Apo Symmar L and Sironar SE regain the 80° for the lenses, but are bulky and expensive. And last but not least we have to take into account that for example Schneider is very restrictive in IC statement (means IQC) that other brands, so you cannot directly compare the prospect numbers of the brands.
regards
Rainer

Apo Sironar S. There was never an SE!

[rawitz]

Right Bob,
the Sironar S (Rodenstock) is the same lens as Sinaron SE (Sinar labelled).

[xkaes]

Hi all,

First of all, this is my first post here (long time first time, etc etc), so I'm sorry if it's an obnoxious one! I've made an earnest attempt to figure out whether this has already been answered, but to no avail. I may not have tried hard enough.

So I'm just dipping my toe into 4x5, and am looking for an 'all-rounder' that'll tide me over for a while without totally breaking the bank. (I already have a cheap Angulon 90/6.8, which is a solid performer (bar soft corners) but has a bum shutter.) I've settled on 135mm, since it's close to what I'm happiest with in 35mm and medium format, and after scouring the Perez/Thalmann chart and Flickr, the EBC version of the Fujinon 135/5.6 looks like the way to go.

I've also scoured Kerry Thalmann's Fuji page as well as the one at Subclub, both of which come together to more or less indicate that the version of the 135 with outside lettering should be the EBC-Coated one that got such good numbers in the tests*. Several things confuse the situation, though:

- Both of the models in the test chart are listed as having serial numbers 542XXX. Looking on eBay, however, I notice that the inside-lettering models are all in the 44XXXX range. That means that the lower-performing model on the chart is not, as I'd thought, the inside-lettering model, but rather an older version of the outside-lettering model. However, it seems just as likely as the serial number is mislabeled in the chart...so, that's a possibility? I see copies on eBay up to 546XXX, so it kind of suprises me that two copies within the same 542XXX range would be differently-coated.

- I actually e-mailed one of the Japanese sellers and asked, among other questions, if their copy (544XXX) was the EBC version. Their response: no. So the plot thickens re: the serial numbers in the lens test chart. Of course, the seller could just be going off of the fact that there's no written indication of EBC on the lens, but given my experience with Japanese eBay sellers I doubt that's the case.

So...does anyone have a copy of the Fujinon-W f/5.6 that is definitely the EBC version? If so, what's your serial number? Is there anything else I can look out for? Thalmann's tip about reflections is unfortunately really tough to go by when dealing with eBay shots.

Oh, and perhaps a more important question that might negate the other: is that jump in performance associated with the difference in the models (from inside-lettering to outside-lettering) in general, or specifically from non-EBC to EBC? Multicoating isn't hugely important to me, as I doubt I'll ever shoot anything other than B&W.

Anyway, thanks a bunch!

*I know that sharpness isn't everything, but it's what I'm looking for at the moment!

Fujinon lenses with the series lettering (A,W,SW,etc.) on the outside of the rim are all EBC coated. (If anyone knows of an exception, please step up to the plate) A few Fujinon lenses with lettering on the INSIDE of the rim are EBC coated -- like the early SWD lenses -- but they are marked EBC inside the rim.

The lenses with the "W" lettering on the outside of the rim are EBC coated, but are NOT W lenses. They are NW lenses. The NW does not appear on the lens, but it appears on the BOX.

There are two main differences between the W lenses and the NW lenses. First is the addition of EBC coating -- which has it's advantages, but less so in B&W. Second, MOST NW lenses have a 6/6 fully air-spaced optical design as compared to the 6/4 design of the W series. That may be more important than the EBC coating.

For more information visit:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/

[cptrios]

Fujinon lenses with the series lettering (A,W,SW,etc.) on the outside of the rim are all EBC coated. (If anyone knows of an exception, please step up to the plate) A few Fujinon lenses with lettering on the INSIDE of the rim are EBC coated -- like the early SWD lenses -- but they are marked EBC inside the rim.

The lenses with the "W" lettering on the outside of the rim are EBC coated, but are NOT W lenses. They are NW lenses. The NW does not appear on the lens, but it appears on the BOX.

There are two main differences between the W lenses and the NW lenses. First is the addition of EBC coating -- which has it's advantages, but less so in B&W. Second, MOST NW lenses have a 6/6 fully air-spaced optical design as compared to the 6/4 design of the W series. That may be more important than the EBC coating.

For more information visit:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/

Yeah I'm definitely not all that picky about the coating itself. I think the current conclusion I can draw from all of these posts is: just go ahead and buy an outside-lettering copy and hope there's nothing wrong with the shutter!

[Joseph Kashi]

Yeah I'm definitely not all that picky about the coating itself. I think the current conclusion I can draw from all of these posts is: just go ahead and buy an outside-lettering copy and hope there's nothing wrong with the shutter!

The Seiko shutters used with the earlier non-EBC Fujinon lenses are as good as any other first-rank brand, on par with the Copals used later. I have a variety of older Fujinon lenses in Seiko shutters. When I test them with my shutter speed tester, I find that the Seiko shutters I have tend to be very accurate and to match the marked speeds until the highest one or two speeds, where shutters from all manufacturers generally are slower than marked by up to one stop.

Virtually all used shutters benefit from a Clean-Lube-Adjust (CLA) visit to a competent shutter technician like Carol Miller at Flutot's. A good CLA now will prolong the useful life of the shutter in addition to ensuring reliable, accurate functioning. Shutter technicians tell me that the only problem regarding Seiko shutters is that it's hard to get repair parts when occasionally needed. If a Seiko shutter becomes irreparable, then you should be able to simply transfer the lens cells directly to the same size Copal shutter, being sure to also transfer any shims in the process.

[Bob Salomon]

The Seiko shutters used with the earlier non-EBC Fujinon lenses are as good as any other first-rank brand, on par with the Copals used later. I have a variety of older Fujinon lenses in Seiko shutters. When I test them with my shutter speed tester, I find that the Seiko shutters I have tend to be very accurate and to match the marked speeds until the highest one or two speeds, where shutters from all manufacturers generally are slower than marked by up to one stop.

Virtually all used shutters benefit from a Clean-Lube-Adjust (CLA) visit to a competent shutter technician like Carol Miller at Flutot's. A good CLA now will prolong the useful life of the shutter in addition to ensuring reliable, accurate functioning. Shutter technicians tell me that the only problem regarding Seiko shutters is that it's hard to get repair parts when occasionally needed. If a Seiko shutter becomes irreparable, then you should be able to simply transfer the lens cells directly to the same size Copal shutter, being sure to also transfer any shims in the process.

And make an aperture scale!

[B.S.Kumar]

To add a bit of confusion: Some, not all, inside lettering lenses had serial numbers that began with the focal length of the given lens. For example, at the moment, I have in front of me a 90mm f/8 lens with the number 90xxxx, 180mm lens with number 18xxxx, 210mm lens with number 21xxxx and 250mm f/6.7 with number 25xxxx. Late production multi-coated lenses had 'EBC' written in green. I don't recollect having seen an outside lettering lens marked 'EBC'.

Kumar

[cptrios]

Well, while waiting for a good 135mm, a great deal on a 150/5.6 popped up and I couldn't resist. It just arrived, and it certainly seems multicoated. The SN is 539XXX and, interestingly, it's in a black-ring Copal 0, so at least the shutter is on the newer side. I'm gonna test it out tomorrow...fingers crossed!

[AA+]

Mr. Kashi states that one can remove the Seikosha shutter and put on a Copal shutter (for the 135mm inside lettering). I tried it and it doesn't work. The snout of the rear Fujinon section protrudes and jams with the f/ stop part of the Copal, ceasing operation However the distances between front and rear optical sections are exactly identical in the two shutters (I measured the two distances, two shutters, with a flat surface plate and dial indicator).

Best wishes --- Allen Anway

[Joseph Kashi]

Mr. Kashi states that one can remove the Seikosha shutter and put on a Copal shutter (for the 135mm inside lettering). I tried it and it doesn't work. The snout of the rear Fujinon section protrudes and jams with the f/ stop part of the Copal, ceasing operation However the distances between front and rear optical sections are exactly identical in the two shutters (I measured the two distances, two shutters, with a flat surface plate and dial indicator).

Best wishes --- Allen Anway

Hi, Allen

Sorry that this did not work for you. After reading your post, I just attempted to replicate the rear section problem that you mention by swapping rear sections of an early Fujinon 135 W in a Seiko shutter and a Fujinon late series 150mm NWS in a late-silver Copal shutter. I swapped both ways and did not experience the problem that you describe. Previously, I was also able to swap without problems a 125mm Fujinon NW and a 120mm SW ultrawide.

The Seikosha that you mention is perhaps an early model, as use of that Seikosha brand name started in the 1930s and 1940s, according to Camerapedia. The Seiko 0 shutters that I have dealt with are at least late 1970s through 1980s models. Perhaps others can help here, but I don't believe that the "Seikosha" that you mention and later "Seiko" shutters as used by Fujinon are precisely the same nor necessarily interchangeable.

There may be a mismatch between Seikosha shutters and the later Seiko and Copal 0 shutters that have worked interchangeably for me. There also seems to be some controversy on the Internet about interchangeability. I can't comment about what others might say, only that I have experienced zero problems switching between late model Seiko 0 and Copal shutters.