Is Horseman Camera Misleading Us Re Movements?

[Tom-Thomas]

Hi all, first post here, and please forgive me if I make any mistake.

It’s been a couple of decades since I last used a view camera. I am planning to get back to it and going to buy a view camera in the near future. While doing research on cameras available to buy, I read Horseman’s various claims of movements that are, according to Horseman, unique to their L-Frame construction.

Maybe I am not knowledgeable enough with view cameras, but for the life of me, I don’t understand their claim of uniqueness. The “unique” movements they describe look to me are the same old regular movements you can find on regular view cameras, and they aren’t at all unique to the L-Frame construction.

Referring to their web page here: https://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/L45.html

(A) They claim a “Film Axis Tilt” (F.A.T.) feature:

Perhaps the most unique Horseman feature in the L45/L45 PRO are found in the design of the "L" standards and their associated control mechanisms. They assure that even when tilt and swing operations are used, the tilt/swing axis always stays coincident with the film plane. When a swing or tilt movement needs to be applied, once the desired image plane is focused on the appropriate swing/tilt axis line, the inclination can be in one movement without trial and error adjustment between focus and inclination.

That description there is just a description of the regular axis (center) tilt and swing.

(B) They mention their “Variable Axis Tilt” (F.A.T.) as a unique feature of theirs:

Now, Horseman goes a big step beyond this by providing "variable axis tilt." The tilt axis still remains in the film plane, eliminating the need for refocusing after tilt has been applied; but the axis can now be moved away from the film plane center, within a range of 40mm. This lets the photographer respond to situations where the object's main horizontal focus axis is not at the exact center.

Due to upward and downward movements of the main frame, the tilt axis can be adjusted by as much as 40mm below the center.

What they describe here is just the situation when you use the rise on the front standard in combination with the front axis (center) tilt. What so unique about it?

(C) Focus Plane Rise (F.P.R.):

But now, the Horseman "focus plane rise" feature permits reframing after focusing in one easy step. The camera back can be raised and lowered along the focal plane. By the same token, the front can be moved along the lens plane. Focusing is not disturbed by these operations, making last second frame adjustments a quick and painless process.

Isn’t this just the regular rise-fall movement? Unless you incorporate other movements, regular rise-fall is always along the focal plane, right?

Is Horseman misleading the consumers by claiming regular view camera movements as something unique to their cameras, inventing some fancy terms, like F.A.T., V.A.T., F.P.R.?
Am I mistaken? If I am wrong, please explain to me in detail the uniqueness of these features.

[r.e.]

I only looked at the first item on your list, Film Axis Tilt (FAT). This appears to be similar to what Arca-Swiss calls Orbix, which is an expensive option that saves focusing time. However, the B&H description of the Horseman L45 (the page still exists) suggests that FAT may have a limitation that Orbix doesn't have. I should add that I've never used this Horseman camera, and don't have Orbix on my Arca. Others will know more about this than I do.

[Michael R]

Variable axis tilt is rare, really only a thing on a few studio/monorails, and the simplest way to implement that feature is to have the standards held by the sides, as is the case with an L or U frame.

The Linhof Kardan Master GTL is/was another example of this type of design although I think the variable axis tilt on the Linhof was even more flexible.

Center tilts are of course common, and there are/were also cameras with asymmetric tilt and/or swing (even some field/flatbed cameras offer asymmetric tilt on the rear standard), but in these cases the axes are fixed. It’s the ability to move the tilt axis up or down (ie variable axis tilt) which is rare.

[Tin Can]

I have 4x5 and 8X10

Heavy and expensive with no parts available

Horseman by TIN CAN COLLEGE, on Flickr

[Bob Salomon]

Variable axis tilt is rare, really only a thing on a few studio/monorails, and the simplest way to implement that feature is to have the standards held by the sides, as is the case with an L or U frame.

The Linhof Kardan Master GTL is/was another example of this type of design although I think the variable axis tilt on the Linhof was even more flexible.

Center tilts are of course common, and there are/were also cameras with asymmetric tilt and/or swing (even some field/flatbed cameras offer asymmetric tilt on the rear standard), but in these cases the axes are fixed. It’s the ability to move the tilt axis up or down (ie variable axis tilt) which is rare.

LInhof originally introduced the variable assymetric movement on their original L standard camera.
Sinar sued LInhof for patent infringement as one point was the same as Sinar’s. LInhof lost the suit in a German court and the L was discontinued.
LInhof reintroduced the movement after Sinar’s patent expired and brought it back on a L shape camera with the telescoping rail.

[Michael R]

Interesting info, Bob.

LInhof originally introduced the variable assymetric movement on their original L standard camera.
Sinar sued LInhof for patent infringement as one point was the same as Sinar’s. LInhof lost the suit in a German court and the L was discontinued.
LInhof reintroduced the movement after Sinar’s patent expired and brought it back on a L shape camera with the telescoping rail.

[Tin Can]

I don't use it, now

It is neat to stretch the bellows way longer than the main rack, by combining movements

[sharktooth]

In most center tilt monorail view cameras the rear tilt axis is in front of the film plane. if the tilt axis was through the film plane the rear standards will block the ability to insert a horizontal film holder when the back is tilted. You can get the front lens tilt axis to go roughly through the lens center since there's no obstruction issue like in the rear.

Eyeball some pictures of center tilt monorail cameras from the side view, and you'll see that the front lensboard probably cuts through the front tilt pivot axis. On the rear, however, the film plane will be well behind the rear tilt pivot axis. The further the film plane is behind the rear tilt axis, the greater the allowable tilt.

If the rear tilt axis goes through the film plane, then anything along that axis will not change position when the back is tilted. If the rear tilt axis is not along the film plane, then everything changes focus as you tilt. The amount of focus shift near the centerline of the film isn't that much with center tilts, but is a lot with base tilts.

The Sinar P camera introduced an ingenious way to use tilts. There are no uprights to block film holder insertion, and the tilt axis is moved to the lower section of the frame with a marked line on the ground glass. If you focus on something along that line, you can then tilt the back to focus on another point in the frame. This won't affect the focus of the point you focused on first. This basically achieves tilt focus in fewer steps.

The Horseman L system has both top and side access to install the film holder without blockage, so the tilt axis can go through the film plane. On the basic Horseman L you have a center tilt axis going through the film plane. On the more advanced Horseman you can also shift the axis tilt so it can be above or below the center axis, and do the same thing as you can do with the Sinar P/P2. The advantage of the Horseman is that you can choose where you want the tilt axis to be. That's what sets it apart. You can't move the tilt axis on the Sinar P/P2 directly, but you can shift the standard up or down for focusing, and then shift it back down after focus is set. It's almost the same thing but an extra step.

[Bob Salomon]

In most monorail view cameras the rear tilt axis is in front of the film plane. if the tilt axis was through the film plane the rear standards will block the ability to insert a horizontal film holder when the back is tilted. You can get the front lens tilt axis to go roughly through the lens center since there's no obstruction issue like in the rear.

Eyeball some pictures of center tilt monorail cameras from the side view, and you'll see that the front lensboard probably cuts through the front tilt pivot axis. On the rear, however, the film plane will be well behind the rear tilt pivot axis. The further the film plane is behind the rear tilt axis, the greater the allowable tilt.

If the rear tilt axis goes through the film plane, then anything along that axis will not change position when the back is tilted. If the rear tilt axis is not along the film plane, then everything changes focus as you tilt. The amount of focus shift near the centerline of the film isn't that much with center tilts, but is a lot with base tilts.

The Sinar P camera introduced an ingenious way to use tilts. There are no uprights to block film holder insertion, and the tilt axis is moved to the lower section of the frame with a marked line on the ground glass. If you focus on something along that line, you can then tilt the back to focus on another point in the frame. This won't affect the focus of the point you focused on first. This basically achieves tilt focus in fewer steps.

The Horseman L system has both top and side access to install the film holder without blockage, so the tilt axis can go through the film plane. On the basic Horseman L you have a center tilt axis going through the film plane. On the more advanced Horseman you can also shift the axis tilt so it can be above or below the center axis, and do the same thing as you can do with the Sinar P/P2. The advantage of the horseman is that you can choose where you want the tilt axis to be. That's what sets it apart. You can't move the tilt axis on the Sinar P/P2 directly, but you can shift the standard up or down for focusing, and then shift it back down after focus is set. It's almost the same thing but an extra step.

So do the LInhof L cameras as well as the Technikardan cameras.

[sharktooth]

The Cambo Master has it as well. I'm not sure how the Arca Swiss Orbit works. Maybe it does too.