durst enlarger

[Michael J. Kravit]

Izaak,

First, I am not sticking up for Durst Pro USA, nor and I saying that what Luis has reported are not the facts. I am only saying that there are three sides to every story, your side, my side and the truth.

You start of by quoting "FACTS".

What evidence do you have that confirms these facts? How do you assume that they are all facts?

I am certainly quite empathetuc to Luis' position, and the fact remains that all of us need to be very careful before sending hard earned money to any vendor.

The tone of your response is not factual but now emotional and personal. You suggest that I called Luis a liar and that is not the case. The only reason I know about the story is that we spent time with Jens as he was installing the enlarger locally.

My response was objective and not at all personal.

Since you obviously are very intimately involved with Luis and seem to be very much irritated by Durst Pro USA, this is where I will bow out. I will not get involved in a flame war, nor place myself in an adversarial position. Luis posted a question and complained about DPUSA. I only responded with our experience and suggested that there are always two sides to every story.

No one is being considered a liar.

Take care, I will not respond futher as I consider this item closed.

[Erik Eks]

You certainly presented Durst Pro's side of the story as facts. By the same token, Michael, what evidence do you have that confirms that what Jens told you are facts? How do you assume that they are all facts? If they are not facts, then what are they, Michael?

The facts are as Luis has presented them in the original posts. Do you not consider them fact-worthy or perhaps you have ignored them in their entirety? You certainly did not address the issue at hand. Your and Jeff's good experience with Durst Pro USA is totally irrelevant to Luis's case as it does not help him to resolve the issue. Can I also say that you're obviously very intimately involved with Jens? Are you also suggesting that just because you had good service, Luis cannot have bad service? This is not an issue of someone merely dissing Luis off and being polite to you; there is a huge sum of money involved here, Luis's money.

You said, '...it seems that Mr. De Santos may not have reported the whole story'. Tell me, what does this statement mean in English? That Luis A De Santos was not telling the whole truth. And that is miles away from suggesting that I implied that you called Luis a liar. Or did you really mean to? Is this not your personal remark on Luis?

You are not as objective as you believe. You are far from being objective. Read your own posts before you beatify yourself. Did you not attribute relationships and antipathy to me where there are none? Don't put words in my mouth.

There are two sides to every story, I grant you that, but there can only be one side which is the truth. Both cannot be true at the same time.

The crux of the matter is this and this needs to be addressed: what did Durst Pro USA promise Luis A De Santos when the money was paid?

Luis should answer this as well to clear the air.

[Erik Eks]

By the way, it is I-Z-A-A-C-K. You should at least spell my name right. If one does not have the stomach to weather the forum, then perhaps a quiet exit would be more appropriate.

[Michael J. Kravit]

IZAACK, or is it Eric? You are a nasty and arrogant person incapable of a mature discussion.

Have a good life.

[Erik Eks]

Tsk, tsk, tsk, guess who's getting personal and emotional now? Kinda like the proverbial pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? And you said that you would not respond further.

Ad hominem attacks are always the last resort of the unreasonable. Shall I call you an insensitive simple-minded boob? No. That would be grouping myself together with you and I demur.

It has nothing to do with being nice but ensuring that a fellow member of this forum i.e. Luis get treated right.

It is sad that you thought that your calling me names for the want of salient arguments made for mature discussion.

Be careful, Michael. You will get what you deserve.

[Michael J. Kravit]

Erik,

My observation of the tone and nature of your response is not name calling. It is simply an observation supported in my opinion by your statements and style of writing. Observing that you express yourself in with arrogance is certainly not name calling. I do not have to resort to name calling as you suggest. I have absolutely no problem debating you maturely and intelligently.

Please re-read my posts and you will find that I never once called Luis a liar, call you names, or take the side of Durst Pro USA (DPUSA).

Point No. 1

In his orginal post Luis asks; "If anybody has had the same experience I would like to know to see if a group protest could have more of an effect. I may be forced to return the enlarger but if these problems are an indication of how this company works getting the money back would be an impossibility. Thank for your replays."

Although my experience was not the same I offered it to suggest that DPUSA may not have intentionally tried to mislead or take Luis.

Point No. 2

You say that "I am happy that you and your friend, Jeff, received good service from Durst Pro USA but you seem to imply that Luis is not telling the whole truth."

No, I only reported what Jens of DPUSA told us. In fact, I contually stated that I was "reporting" what DPUSA said. I NEVER offered an opinion nor a judgement about Luis other than there might be other aspects to the story as evidenced by DPUSA's position. I offered no judgement as to who was right or who was wrong. Your assertions and tone passed judgement that I did.

Point No. 3

You state "You certainly presented Durst Pro's side of the story as facts. By the same token, Michael, what evidence do you have that confirms that what Jens told you are facts? How do you assume that they are all facts? If they are not facts, then what are they, Michael?"

No, I always said "Durst Pro USA reportes". I did not offer my opinion as to the whether or not Jen or Luis was right or wrong. You assumed that I did.

You further state "Comparing your facts with Luis's own, I am quite sure I know whom to believe. One of us is not getting the entire picture."

I never offered facts, only expressed the position of DPUSA. You made these facts "mine" and therfore personal.

Point 4.

Again you go on to state "You certainly presented Durst Pro's side of the story as facts. By the same token, Michael, what evidence do you have that confirms that what Jens told you are facts? How do you assume that they are all facts? If they are not facts, then what are they, Michael?"

I did not offer DPUSA's position as fact, only as a statement reporting what Jens had told us. I did not pass judgement.

You state "The facts are as Luis has presented them in the original posts"

Are we to take your word for this? The way you say this is strongly making a statement of fact. You do a pretty good job of attacking me and twisting my words and intentions and then go on to define as facts as gospel. Have you not then done exactly what you accuse me of doing?

Point 5.

You also state "Can I also say that you're obviously very intimately involved with Jens? "

Huh? You have no idea what you are talking about.

For your information I am the Architect for Jeff's gallery and studio. I was involved from a technical point of view as I designed the electrical and mechanical systems for the installation. Jeff is also a friend as many of my clients are and I often provide personal attention during installation of equipment. Especially since these units had special requirements for venting. Design professionals speak with clients equipment suppliers and obtain specifications and installation requirements. I am to be chastized for this position? I think not. So you see, you really do not know what you are talking about. As a design professional, I was involved in the installation.

I can not undertsand what your problem would be with that.

Point 6

You state "Ad hominem attacks are always the last resort of the unreasonable. Shall I call you an insensitive simple-minded boob? No. That would be grouping myself together with you and I demur."

Yes, you just did. You tell me that I am a simple minded boob, and then say that No you would be grouping yourseld with me. Erik listen to yourself, you are doing just that.

I stated that you are arrogant and nasty. I never called you names. I expressed an opinion based upon your statements and writing style. In fact, I consider your style overbearing and aggressive. Last time I checked that was in part the definition of arrogance.

Sorry, I am not calling names, only expressing my opinion as to the tone and style of your expression as evidenced by each of your replies.

Conclusion

I stand by my position that I offered only to report what DPUSA has said. I am not a party to Luis deal and wish him all the best. I have nothing to do with DPUSA's business practices nor have I ever met Jens before the installation noted above.

In each and every one of my replies I never called names nor offered anything that was demeaning. I have construed your aggressive style as personal attacks on me. It is obvious that you are on a crusade against DPUSA for reasons that I know knothing about nor want to know about.

I indicated that I would not respond not because I can not weather the head of a forum, but because I felt the discussion had become irrelevant and off topic.

Unfortunately I have been compelled to offer the preceeding as a debate response to your emotional and pointed accustaions. I prefer to let this end here and now. I do not know you nor care who you are. I did not initiate the conversation with you but only offer my experience with DPUSA in a comparision to that of Luis' and to offer him DPUSA's position, which by the way, he asked for in his origional post.

If you feel compelled to respond, I would be happy to debate and discuss with you offline by email. I do not see the need to drag this through the forum.

Michael

[Erik Eks]

Stop prevaricating and stop being disingenuous. If you can call me names, at least have the cojones to own up to it. 'Report' does not change anything especially as what you were reporting was being offered as facts. Ever heard of just 'reporting the facts'? Seems evident that that was what you were trying to do. You questioned my statements of facts. I questioned yours. If you claim that what you were reporting were not facts, then what are they, I ask again. Lies?

You are guilty of everything that you accused me of. Ascribing motives where there are none is a pretty low way of trying to win an argument. You started by getting personal while I was happy to just rely on what was written by Luis. Even for you.

If you interpret my writings as being nasty and arrogant, that is your problem, so learn to deal with it. It seems clear to me that you would not allow one to interpret your writings as anything other than benign while you give yourself license to describe others in whatever pejoratives you choose. What does that make you? A cowardly bully. There. How's that for a taste of your own medicine?

Don't give me the line about taking this offline after you have slagged me on this forum. May I add hypocrisy to your resume?

For the last time, it is IZAACK. Are you dyslexic to boot?

Now we can take it offline if you choose.

[Erik Eks]

My apologies to Dr. Q.T. Luong. I had to respond to Michael Kravit's ad hominem attacks against me on this forum. Now that I have done so, I will be happy to take it private if Michael Kravit is happy to do so.

[Michael J. Kravit]

Unbelieveable.

I guess the name calling and last response just continues to show this man's true personality and tells the whold story.

[Jens J Jensen]

I have read this Large Format posting with interest.

First of all I want to say that I have been in constant contact with Mr. De Santos. I have been at his service whenever he has contacted me and have also spent several hours helping Mr. De Santos with issues not related to his purchase from us. I have explained to Mr. De Santos was is causing the delay on his color head and I have been working intensively on solving the problem. I am almost 4 months late delivering the color head. However, this has to be seen in relation to the fact that Mr. De Santos postponed taking delivery for 19 months. I have offered Mr. De Santos another head which he declined. I have offered Mr. De Santos a full refund, which he declined.

Secondly, and this is directed at the entire large format photographic community. Postings on the Large format forum are very very power full. The critique is often emotional and out of context causing confusion and damage. Not so long ago a gentleman from Hong Kong posted a critique of me and my company. This hurt my business very much. The Hong Kong critique was untrue on unfair. Yesterday we a $37,000 sale were canceled and the customer cited this current Louis De Santos thread on the Large Format Forum as the reason.

Mr. De Santos critique is not incorrect; I am almost 4 months late delivering his color head. (A full explanation is posted below.)

However posting the critique in public is not necessary to get the problems solved. I am not the only large format vendor suffering under “web based forums” I know from two camera manufacturers that they also have suffered greatly from these forums. I ask you to understand that none of us are in the business to “steal” your money. We are serving large format photographers to the best of our ability. And it is not easy. And we, the vendors, are becoming fewer and fewer every day. We are small business, often 1 to 3 persons, and many times we struggle to make ends meet. I can tell you that my personal feeling is that dealing with this kind of critique and these forums really are stealing away my desire to work with this market. I know this also to be the case from other vendors, so before you decide to leash out please be aware that we make mistakes like everybody else….. and try to understand the situation.

Mr. de Santos problem;

In April of 2002 Mr. De Santos bought a re-manufactured L184 enlarger with a used CLS301 Color head from us. Mr. De Santos postponed delivery pending building his darkroom. 7 months later, in December of 2002, we delivered Mr. De Santos chassis by mistake without having been requested to do so by Mr. De Santos. We had moved the crate around several times and it was mistakenly placed in the shipping area and shipped. Mr. De Santos got very upset about the untimely delivery and told us specifically NOT to deliver the remaining parts till he requested the parts delivered. 19 months after having bought the equipment, late November, early December of 2003, Mr. De Santos asked to have the rest of the enlarger delivered. I told him then that delivery would be six weeks due to an extreme backlog of orders.

We charged $290.00 for storage for the entire 19 months. (No other vendor would have accepted having material sitting this long.)

In August of 2002 Mr. De Santos changed his initial order from a CLS301 head to a CLS300 head. After the change we immediately sold the CLS301 head that we had had sitting for a year waiting for Mr. De Santos and we put aside a CLS300 head as soon as we got it in.

When preparing to ship Mr. De Santos material in January of 2004, I realized that I had made a mistake in assessing his used EST300 power supply for the CLS300 head. It was not in working condition and could not be repaired. The EST300 power supply is no longer available from Durst. And I have not been able to find another used EST300 for Mr. De Santos. It took a couple of weeks to realize the fact that the EST300 was not obtainable.

I could have canceled the order. I choose not to because we get requests very often for the EST300 power supply. Instead I set out to have a new power supply designed and manufactured to replace the EST300. Developing a power supply, getting the parts, testing and correcting takes time and we did not finish the work till last week.

Mr. De Santos remaining parts shipped yesterday.

This is what I did in a (failed) attempt to keep Mr. De Santos happy:

I upgraded the used CLS300 Color head to a brand new Color head, I upgraded the LACAP mixing box adapter to a brand new adapter, I upgraded the mixing boxes from used to new, I shipped a new ULTRA STABLE base board and paid for shipping also, I upgraded the EST300 power supply to a brand new EST1500N/300 power supply, all in all a value of at least $3,000.00 And I apologized extensively to Mr. De Santos and explained to him that he had received all these upgrades free of charge.

Apparently it was not enough to satisfy Mr. De Santos….. I am really very sorry.

Jensen