Difference Between Sinar F1, F2 - Finally found a definitive answer - FYI

[Cletus]

This is an FYI post for anyone with a newer Sinar F (1 or 2) series camera, or who, like me, was never able to get a satisfactory answer to this question. I have been searching for some time now, trying to find out once and for all, what the actual difference is between the Sinar F1 and F2 cameras. This applies to 4x5 and 8x10 cameras only, not sure about 5x7 or other formats, or Sinar P, X or F model variations, such as Sinar C. Many of these variations are simply different combinations of different Sinar model standards and other components and aren't something you could typically buy complete from Sinar. At least that's what I gathered from the Sinar literature...

I've heard several different ideas on the differences betwixt the F1 and F2 designations, but never quite the right answer, or two answers the same. I finally found a copy of an old Sinar Sales Brochure that outlines the differences between models. So far, this is the only satisfactory answer I've been able to find:

4x5 Sinar F1 uses the "Sinar Accessory / Utility Standard" as the front, or lens standard. The rear, or image standard on F1 and F2 are the same, with the difference being the fine focus knob along side the rise knob and a more robust rail clamping system with the bottom knurled rubber locking knob (instead of the plastic knob).

4x5 Sinar F2 has the fine focus feature on both standards, IOW, they are identical. Newer models of the F2 front and rear standards also have separate shift and swing lock levers, but this apparently does not differentiate the F1 and F2, or one F2 from another, as I had been given to understand. So the front standard type is apparently the only difference between F1/F2 of similar vintage.

8x10 Sinar F2 has fine focus and robust rail clamp on both front and rear standards and separate shift and tilt locks on the rear (and the separate locks on the "4x5" front too, depending on vintage). Technically, there is no Sinar 8x10 "F1" unless you find one with the 4x5 accessory frame serving as the front standard, instead of the fine focus type. This was something I was warned (by Leigh here on the forum) to look out for when shopping for an 8x10. Now I understand the difference. Fortunately, the F2 8x10 I found is a true F2 with the proper front standard. There is evidently no difference between front standards on 4x5 and 8x10 as long as it's truly an F2. The Accessory standard is probably not robust enough to be used for some of the heavy C-3 lenses used with 8x10.

So this is what I've been able to find and I feel satisfied now that I know the difference between the two camera models. Good to know if you're camera shopping (like I recently was), especially on Ebay or somewhere, where it's quite possible the seller doesn't really understand what they have. If someone else has another idea on this, or another difference I didn't point out, or catch, I'd be happy to hear it. Hopefully this post will finally answer the question, for those of you who were wondering about this too.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Very useful, thanks! How about the F and F+?

[Drew Wiley]

Not totally accurate. Depends when the cameras were made. The correct front for an
8x10 F2 has larger diameter steel posts, not alum ones like 4x5. F+ was a 4x5 with the
inferior multipupose standard on the front. All the older standards combined shift and swing
on the same lever. Then you had the C series which used a P back and F front. The literature called Sinar Code for a given vintage shows the details. Unfortunately, some of
the older used equip which shows up for sale might be jerryrigged from mismatched components. The camera might operate fine; but it's difficult to know exactly what you're
getting. I wouldn't want an 8x10 with a 4x5 front, or it might not hold heavier lenses steady.

[Cletus]

This applies to 4x5 and 8x10 cameras only, not sure about 5x7 or other formats, or Sinar P, X or F model variations, such as Sinar C. Many of these variations are simply different combinations of different Sinar model standards and other components and aren't something you could typically buy complete from Sinar. At least that's what I gathered from the Sinar literature...

Not sure about F+ or other models. The brochure I had only talked about Sinar F and P and I think those are the only "base model" LF cameras that Sinar was offering at the time. I know they have an "X" now too, but I don't know much about that one. Looks like an updated P2 to me.

I'm pretty sure the P, P1 and P2 are just updates of the same model and same standards. I think if you stick a P rear with an F front you get a C, or something like that, but not clear on all the variations and possible combinations. As you likely know, Sinar stuff is all standard and compatible, which is one of the reasons I chose it for my system(s).

[Cletus]

Drew -

I was told the 8x10 had a beefier front standard too, but I can't find anything about it in the Sinar literature. I was looking out for this when I bought the camera too, but in my case, the guy I bought my 8x10 from was the original owner, so I wasn't too worried about mixed parts and pieces. He said he bought the camera new and I believe him. He was a commercial pro and not the type to tell tales I think...

I also have a Sinar "F1" I bought used from Adorama and other than the separate swing/shift levers (my 8x10 front has 'em, the Adorama camera doens't) I can't tell the difference between the 4x5 rear and 8x10 front. They appear identical in every way (except the levers). The rise rails on both are the same size and both appear to be steel rather than aluminum.

I'm not trying to contradict what you're saying, just trying to understand this apparently complicated issue of Sinar models.

[Cletus]

Drew - Nope, I think you're right. Something isn't the same about the 4x5 rear vs. 8x10 front, besides the locking levers. The rise rails are exactly the same size and length, but with both of them bottomed out on the same rail, the 8x10 front sits about 1/2" higher than the 4x5 rear. I have my 4x5 set up as an "F2" right now, with the 8x10 front and 4x5 rear. The multipurpose standard that came with the 4x5 isn't being used right now.

So there's something and I don't know what. I'm going back over the Sinar brochure now trying to see if there's something I missed. It's not very detailed, so maybe it doesn't specify the differences between the 4x5 and 8x10.

[Frank Petronio]

Be careful on eBay because a lot of cameras are mis-identified. Personally I prefer Normas but a cheap F is a great entry-level camera. And a proper F2 is very nice, I consider it on par with the Norma in actual use (but it's not as pretty haha). The F2 knobs and such are a lot nicer than the F1 or earlier models.

[Cletus]

Frank - I agree completely with what you just said and some of those points are what prompted me to do this post in the first place. I thought I had done some pretty sound research, but Drew Wiley just pointed out that I may still be a little off on what I believed was the last word on Sinar F cameras.

And indeed, I've looked through a lot of Ebay ads for Sinar F type cameras and they're all over the place. Very few listings seem to accurately reflect the correct models for these cameras as I understand it. I'm sure it's mostly not the intentions of the Sellers to deceive. Sinar F model variations are evidently a rather convoluted and unclear subject. Even now, after I thought I had it all figured out!

[rdenney]

Both the changes you describe for 4x5 are actually part of the standard answer for the difference between the F/F1 and F2. I know I've typed many times that the F and F1 use the "multipurpose standard" (437.61 during the later era) and the F2 uses the "front standard/Sinar C2/F2" (431.61), with the main difference being that the latter has a full enclosure around the rail and geared focus, while the former has the advantage of being installable without having to slide it over the end of the rail.

Don't put too much stock in the brochures. My quoted descriptions above come out of the Sinar Code, undated but published certainly after the lineup included the F2/C2/P2. The titles used to describe pieces and parts vary.

Another difference between later F2's and the earliest F2's and previous F's was the separate control for locking shift. Previously, shift and swing shared the same locking lever.

The F2 also often came stock with the metering back. The F and F1 would, of course, accept the metering back but were not usually supplied with it. The 491.61 F1 kit did not include it but the 491.96 F2 Standard kit did.

The "special front standard" (431.62) was always included in the 8x10 kits. As Leigh and others have mentioned many times, it includes beefier and longer rise/fall columns. There were also bellows differences that he has mentioned.

The F1 differed from the F in cosmetics. It was all black, and included the new-style knobs that all operate from the right. The pictures indicate that the F1 knobs are the same as the F2 knobs, and the real change was between the F and the F1/F2, which may be what Frank intended to say.

Nobody has ever been able to distinguish the F from the F+ in my hearing, other than maybe the tripod clamp that was included in the kit.

All of these components were subject to continuous improvements over their production lives, without changing part or model numbers. Those changes are only documented in the service manuals.

I know I've written all of the above a bunch of times, and I bet Frank has written it even more than I have. Here are some randomly selected examples found in a quickie search using Google:

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...the-difference

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...1-F2-standards

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...the-difference

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...How-can-I-tell

And here's a quick mention of the most important difference in the articles on the home page:

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...tml#comparison

As you can see, this topic gets repeated a lot! But it needs to be, because the question gets asked a lot.

Rick "who googled 'site:largeformatphotography.info sinar f2 f1 differences'" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

It would be nice is someone put a database online with the various Sinar Codes. The camera has had many variations over the years, so some confusion over terminology is inevitable. But most components can be interchanged clear back to the Norma era. In
fact, I've replaced some things with newer equivalents, but by contrast, am now working
mostly with Norma components. I especially like the tapered bellows. Don't know why they
gave up on that unless it was simply a cost consideration.