14" Commercial Ektar Buying Advice Wanted

[jcoldslabs]

I have a chance to buy a very clean condition 1958 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar in a working but not speed-tested Ilex shutter with flange. I have handled the lens and it is in fine shape optically without coating scratches or cleaning marks. The asking price is $600.

I am short of lenses in shutters for my 8x10 gear (I use a Packard and/or lens cap much of the time). The closest lens I have in a shutter is a 300mm f/5.6 Caltar. Reputation and hype have led me to covet this lens for years. My questions are:

1. Is this a fair price? I can find only one "completed auction" for $519 for reference.

2. Is the lens worth owning for portraits and occasional "fine art" field work? I've heard it is a good lens, but that doesn't mean a whole lot at this point. I shoot mostly B&W but have some 8x10 Ektachrome to work my way through.

Thanks.

Jonathan

[Frank Petronio]

I've boughten two of them over the years and never paid more than $400 for nice ones. They pretty much all have minor cleaning marks and the large #5 shutters are never going to fire as fast as you hope their highest speeds will go (expect 1/50th at best). You can usually thread a 72mm filter onto the front. The lens is compact, the shutter is a huge thing. You need a long-throw cable release to make it fire. If you find a mint, unused one then perhaps it is a dog that never got used, it may not be the "find" you hope it is? I'd prefer a loved user, knowing it works well.

I think they are a wonderful, sharp yet smooth general purpose lens. I expect a modern 360 plasmat will be a tiny bit sharper and have more contrast but many people prefer the rendering of the Commercial Ektar. When it was made in the 1950s it was the absolute top-of-the-line in the world.

Avedon used a 360 Symmar and Fuji Plasmat for the American West portraits. Jock Sturges uses a 14" Commercial Ektar for his nudes.

I think they are a great portrait lens without being mushy, as how most people think portrait lenses should be.

That said, a $400 360 Symmar from the 70s-80s in a Copal 3 is also going to be a nice lens and the shutter is more capable - 1/125th (OK call it 1/80th) and a common, smaller mounting footprint (but the lens itself is larger and heavier than the Ektar).

I just sold a contemporary 360 APO-Symmar in a late Copal 3 for $600 -- that's as sharp as you can get, I think, more for cold landscape and harder portraits.

From a 14" on 8x10:

[Alan Gales]

Lately the 14" Commercial Ektars have gone up in price. At least what I have been seeing on Ebay. I hate to admit it but I paid $600.00 for mine plus shipping. It is the lens that I just had to have. Mine is a little older than the one that you are looking at but is really clean and had a recent CLA before I bought it. I have seen a couple go on here for less after I bought mine. So watch the forum if you are patient and are looking for a better deal.

Yousef Karsh also used a 14" Commercial Ektar. Just look at Frank's wonderful shot to see what all the fuss is all about. Fantastic portrait lens!

[Brian C. Miller]

There was an eBay auction completed a few days ago, and a Kodak 14" lens went for under $250. The buy-it-now lenses are $500. I bought one in the forum classifieds for $275. Just wait, and one will eventually come up for a decent price.

Now, as for "fine lenses," that all depends on what you want to do. c.d.ewen put a Busch Rapid Aplanat f/8 13inch in a Copal 3 shutter adapter, and wow, that lens is not a slouch! I don't know yet how it really compares to my Nikkor 240 or Fuji 300 and 360, but for sharpness that lens does not disappoint, and that was wide open! I need to do some real tests and find out what these lenses do, wide open and stopped down.

Is $600 a reasonable price for a 14" lens? I think so. You might pay about the same for a Fuji 360 in Copal 3, and gain one more shutter speed. The only problem is that there aren't many spare parts anymore for the Ilex #5 shutter. Carol Flutot makes a note of that on her page. The lens itself could be remounted in a Copal 3, but you'd lose an f/stop by doing that.

Now for the important part: how is the Caltar working for you? I'm guessing that the lens is in a Copal 3, and the speeds are OK. There is a focal length difference between 12 and 14" but it's not that significant. And on a contact print, I'm not that sure you would really notice a difference. A side-by-side test would have to be made. Can you cart your camera over to the owner's house and temporarily mount it on a piece of stiff cardboard? Then you could make a test with it and your current lens, and see what the difference between them really is.

[Frank Petronio]

I don't think I've seen a 14 Com Ektar in a Copal 3 ever, might be too large.

I used to shoot with a 300/5.6 Xenar in a Copal 3 and regret selling that lens, it was like the Kodak being smooth/sharp. But when comparing shots, the 14" (360mm) versus the 12" (300mm) made a significant difference, especially for closer portraits.

That said, if I were shooting 8x10 in practical terms I'd want a 10/240 and 14/360 combo, or only a 12/300.

[jcoldslabs]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have been debating about whether the additional 56mm beyond my existing 300mm lens (yes, in a Copal 3 that runs a tad bit slow) would be all that worth it. I have the ability to borrow the lens for a quick test, and I think I'll do just that. And I'm in no rush, so waiting for a better deal sounds like good advice. Plus, I'm not married to a Comm. Ektar per se, although I do have a vintage lens fetish (who doesn't?). The lens-in-hand purchase has appeal that the roll-of-the-dice E*ay auction does not, however.

Frank--thanks for the sample image. Very nice. I think I should do a side-by-side with the Caltar both for angle of view and image quality comparisons. Now to find the time!

[c.d.ewen]

Brian:

IIRC, that recent $250 eBay auction was for an "ordinary" Ektar, which doesn't get the cult status of a CE. The shutter was the prize that the bidders were after.

Glad you like the Busch

Jonathan:

The BIN's for 14" CE's on eBay seem to be around $800 - always an indication of top price. $600 for a good exemplar is not necessarily overpriced, but also not a bargain. If you're not in a hurry, bide your time.

My 14" CE is one of those "well-loved & well-used but well-cared-for" ones from a professional (came with the lacquered box). I like it, but I see I only used it once this year. I'll attach a photo of a bunch of squinting neices and nephews, so you can see what happens on a Sunny-16 kind of day (and try and get too many zones into your picture).

Charley

[cdholden]

In addition to the smooth and well defined edge detail, I really like the out of focus look of the Commercial Ektar. I've not seen the $800 BIN. That's obscene. $600 is the higher end of what I've seen, but like you say, having it to inspect in your hand is worth a few bucks itself just to make sure the condition of the glass is what you want.
If the shutter sounds close, it's probably good enough. Frank Marshman can give it a tuneup for you too. He has all the old Ilex stock, so there's no question of him having any necessary spring replacement to get the timing right.

[Michael Jones]

The only problem is that there aren't many spare parts anymore for the Ilex #5 shutter.

Not quite true. While I send all my other shutters to Carol for work, all my Ilex shutters go to Frank Marshman (aka Camera Wiz) in Virginia. When Melles Griot decided to get out of the shutter industry -they bought the rights to make Ilex shutter & did; theirs are the ones with black face plates- Frank bought all the spare parts. The only shutter for which the parts supply is tight is for the Ilex 4. As I recall, I paid $125 for an overhaul last summer of an Ilex 5 and that included a new drive train.

Mike

[Frank Petronio]

I thought the idea behind the Ilex was that they were indestructible and made from bent tin - a masterpiece of low cost but smart engineering? As opposed to the Compur with all their finely fitted, hand-crafted parts that required routine service.