Harman Direct Positive Images

[gambaphoto]

I posted this last week in "lenses & lens access." thread and have had some great help but now I'm onto the test shooting phase so I would like to transfer the questions over to here for some help if I may. Below is the original post and after that is the latest update. Thank you again for all your help.

I have this project in mind to use Harman Direct Positive paper to shoot portraits hopefully using a 16x20 camera that I yet to find or make. I am starting small first, testing out the idea on my Crown Graphics 2x3 cutting some 4x5 paper to fit so I should have plenty of test for very little cost. If it works the way I am planning, I would really like to put the 16x20 plan into effect. I have never shot anything larger then 8x10 so when it comes to lenses I am out of my knowledge base so I am hoping you could help shine some light. The framing I am looking for in these portraits is that of using a 35mm to 50mm lens on 35mm format. My subject will I think be as close as 10 to 20 feet from the camera to get that full standing to 3/4 shot with a shallow depth of field. I think I am looking for a 600mm 24 inch lens but what about 500mm or 480mm? It seems that its not just the mm/inch of the lens but rather more importantly the image circle it provides. I would think that with my subject at close range and the front standard being farther away (2 feet?) I should gain some image circle diameter? Again I have no plans on making this lens focus to infinity and I would like to keep that aperture under f16. Any thoughts, information and or help that you could pass my way will be greatly appreciated. And yes I am aware this like a lazy/poor man's wet plate, thats the idea. little steps.
thanks
Paul

Thanks again for all your help everyone. I did get a chance this weekend to do my first test using my 2x3. Well I learned that I completely fogged all my paper in the darkroom cutting down the 4x5 sheets to 2x3. The exposures here barely visible. At first I thought it was the developer being off temp, so I warmed it back up to temp and tried the second exposure and the same result. I then tried a sheet of uncut paper that although was out while I was cutting the others was in the middle of the stack and there it was complete black. So then I very quickly took another sheet from the stack and tried to cut it again in almost no light at all (using a kodak safe light but I think the bulb is to bright) and ran out side and tried again. This time the exposure showed itself within 30 seconds but seemed underexposed and then I think quickly became over developed. And the second exposure seemed to be fogged again but no nearly as bad as the first ones. in fact this one was the closest to what I expected and I think shows that this paper needs to be pre flashed. I handheld ambient metered for direct bright sun light on the face at f16 1/15sec at iso12 and opened 2 stops to correct for iso3 rating on the paper so the final exposure was actually f8 1/10sec and I think I was still dark about 2 stops before I over developed it. I didn't correct for any reciprocity because the this was only a 2x3 crown graphix and the bellows was typical at only 5 inches but maybe I should? So I'll order a new box of paper and try again. I think I might only load one side of the film holder to make sure I'm not getting any fogging from the first exposure and I'll find a way to cut this paper in complete darkness (good luck with that). I think I close. I'm a bit deflated but I'm ready to try again.

[premortho]

Well, I would make a suggestion or two...I presume you are using the normal length lens on the 2.25X3.25 Graphic. 4 to 4.5 inches or 100 to 110 mm. I think you should start with normal photo paper of the same brand, ie Ilford, to get your negs at the density you want, adjusting the asa until you get the exposure you want. I use Dectol plate, film and paper developer. I dilute the box mix of 2 to 1 by 12 which gives a real dilution of 24 to 1. Develope under a dim red safelight until it looks a little over-developed. pull it out and look through the back at the safelight for a few seconds for detail in the shadows (the light part of the neg). If it is developed enough, rinse, fix and rinse thoroughly, let dry, and contact print normally to see if exposure is correct. You have checked the shutter speeds you are using, I presume. If 1/10 is not correct, place shutter on bulb and try opening, say click-ah and close shutter. Once you are getting consistant results, then try Harman paper at one asa number slower, one the same and one faster, using shutter speeds. I suggest paper negs first as these are much cheaper than Direct Positive paper. If you liked the 8X10 drawing you are getting with a 12 inch lens, try the same formula on your new one, ie the long side of the neg +45% of the short side to get an equivilent drawing. 27 or so inch lens. Your fogging problems could be a too bright safe light, or not red enough or both.

I posted this last week in "lenses & lens access." thread and have had some great help but now I'm onto the test shooting phase so I would like to transfer the questions over to here for some help if I may. Below is the original post and after that is the latest update. Thank you again for all your help.





Thanks again for all your help everyone. I did get a chance this weekend to do my first test using my 2x3. Well I learned that I completely fogged all my paper in the darkroom cutting down the 4x5 sheets to 2x3. The exposures here barely visible. At first I thought it was the developer being off temp, so I warmed it back up to temp and tried the second exposure and the same result. I then tried a sheet of uncut paper that although was out while I was cutting the others was in the middle of the stack and there it was complete black. So then I very quickly took another sheet from the stack and tried to cut it again in almost no light at all (using a kodak safe light but I think the bulb is to bright) and ran out side and tried again. This time the exposure showed itself within 30 seconds but seemed underexposed and then I think quickly became over developed. And the second exposure seemed to be fogged again but no nearly as bad as the first ones. in fact this one was the closest to what I expected and I think shows that this paper needs to be pre flashed. I handheld ambient metered for direct bright sun light on the face at f16 1/15sec at iso12 and opened 2 stops to correct for iso3 rating on the paper so the final exposure was actually f8 1/10sec and I think I was still dark about 2 stops before I over developed it. I didn't correct for any reciprocity because the this was only a 2x3 crown graphix and the bellows was typical at only 5 inches but maybe I should? So I'll order a new box of paper and try again. I think I might only load one side of the film holder to make sure I'm not getting any fogging from the first exposure and I'll find a way to cut this paper in complete darkness (good luck with that). I think I close. I'm a bit deflated but I'm ready to try again.

[premortho]

I should have added that it won't take long for you to read a neg for exposure, then you don't have to do a contact print

[wentbackward]

Dear @gambaphoto, Please keep trying, but I strongly suggest a need to slow down and read carefully through the information from the Ilford website, it's really important, don't rush things. It says in the doc I have that it is only suitable up to 11 x 14, quite far from 20 x 16 you desire.

For developing in particular you really need to read page 7.

- Specific recommendations for a safelight (noted 4 times, plus I recall someone noted fogging on this thread). Ilfords doc has this on pages 1,2,4 & 6!
- I don't think you can over develop the paper in 30s, I process mine for 4-5 mins in a tank that I cannot see anything. The docs say the paper needs to be well-developed for best results (p 7). Don't worry about this for now, you should still have a good image after 3 to 5 mins in a properly diluted developer.
- Your processing might render the paper more or less than ISO 3, so you need to carry out some kind of calibration/testing (i.e. pull the darkslide out 1" at a time) and well develop that sheet. Those steps will tell you what your ISO is.
- This paper is extremely contrasty in fresh developer with no pre-flash. Bracan has mentioned above it and confirmed by my findings also.
- No reciprocity from findings of other users here, do not worry about this.
- Bellows factor has no direct bearing on reciprocity. Focus on something 10 feet away for your tests and you'll be fine.
- Overexposure should in theory turn everything white, but I've had one possible instance (and was reported on the flickr group I think) that others suspect it may go black again. f8 @ 1/10s, I would have thought would render something ... do the calibration step and you'll know for sure.

- Paul

[gambaphoto]

Thank you premortho and wentbackward

Here are the first prints. they were all exposed the same in camera 1/10 @f8. take1 is clearly fogged. take2 clearly fogged but I left it in the fix while I racked my brain for what was going wrong. take3 was fogged but not as much, take4 is underexposed.
Attachment 80317Attachment 80318Attachment 80319Attachment 80320

[gambaphoto]

[premortho]

Perhaps you have a shutter problem...although 1/10 of a second is faster than my experience indicates is correct. Try loading 4 sheets and expose at 1/10, 1/5 (or 1/4) 1/2 and one second, and see what you get.

[fecaleagle]

Are you guys and girls all buying FB Glossy, because I can't seem to find Luster anywhere to save my life right about now... Any opinions on the FB Glossy? I do prefer fiber-based to resin-coated, but I don't know if I'm brave enough to buy the glossy unseen.

Thanks,
William

[premortho]

Call me a chicken, if you want. But I'm afraid of the light scattering off of the glossy film effecting contrast. So I'll wait until I can get aduller finished emulsion.

Are you guys and girls all buying FB Glossy, because I can't seem to find Luster anywhere to save my life right about now... Any opinions on the FB Glossy? I do prefer fiber-based to resin-coated, but I don't know if I'm brave enough to buy the glossy unseen.

Thanks,
William

[Kav]

So yesterday I was invited to an art walk as one of the artists. I was going to be the only photographer, and I wanted to make photos but do it fast enough to keep the interest of people milling about. So I shot portraits with my 4x5 Speed Graphic and developed them on the spot. For the most part they turned out pretty good for exposures working there way to the 15 second mark as the sun was setting. The reception was better then I expected. I got word that people were telling there friends to "go see the guy making photos at the end of the street. I didn't pre-flash the paper or use any filters. In the very limited testing I was able to do it seems like my batch was about ISO 1.5.